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Real Tanks

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Real Tanks
Post by Randomiser   » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:19 pm

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Silverwall wrote:
Flight is hard without detectable electricity but doable to at least the recon level.



Agreed. People did turn up at least one RL example of a steam powered plane IIRC and there were several WW2 level Diesel powered military planes. In both cases, I suspect part of the difficulty is that a power plant with a lower P/W ratio than one using aviation fuel requires a correspondingly better grasp of aerodynamics to design a workable airframe, which makes it a bigger first jump.
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Re: Real Tanks
Post by Captain Igloo   » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:01 pm

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The Tank Museum Bovington, UK

Everything you want to know about WW1 and WW2 Tanks
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Re: Real Tanks
Post by evilauthor   » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:17 pm

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Silverwall wrote:Communications is impossible and I believe that if he wants it RFC will continue to use the magical SNARKS and terran fed tech he has the inner circle use. Otherwise your tactical comms are limited to flags and the speed or a runner/horseman. Flags barely work in an ACW style engagements let alone in dispursed modern combat. Given safeholds tech level there is NO know com tech that doesn't give off detectable EM radiation which we all currently believe is a big no-no.


Heliographs have also been used in the story. But that requires a shining sun and direct line of sight (and of course a guy looking at the sender).

You might be able to rig something similar with an open flame and mirrors and shutters for night use, and the new gasses can provide steady light. But again, you need someone looking at the sender which makes this impractical for mobile applications.
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Re: Real Tanks
Post by JRM   » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:47 pm

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evilauthor wrote:
Silverwall wrote:Communications is impossible and I believe that if he wants it RFC will continue to use the magical SNARKS and terran fed tech he has the inner circle use. Otherwise your tactical comms are limited to flags and the speed or a runner/horseman. Flags barely work in an ACW style engagements let alone in dispursed modern combat. Given safeholds tech level there is NO know com tech that doesn't give off detectable EM radiation which we all currently believe is a big no-no.


Heliographs have also been used in the story. But that requires a shining sun and direct line of sight (and of course a guy looking at the sender).

You might be able to rig something similar with an open flame and mirrors and shutters for night use, and the new gasses can provide steady light. But again, you need someone looking at the sender which makes this impractical for mobile applications.


Hi,
Here are three possibilities to discuss:

1. Low tech - church compliant. Borrow a light source from welding to get a light that can't be observed directly with the eye. Use optical devices (mirrors, prisms etc.) to direct the signal where you want it to go. The receiver should have parabolic mirrors to focus light within an arc. The received light should be reflected to a horizontal band in a darkened area. The receiver may have multiple receiving mirrors set to cover a full 360 degrees of circumference. The receiving mirror should have a light block from the sky.

2. Undetectable - not compliant. Use black boxes made in Merlin's cave to transmit and receive hypersonic sound waves. The black boxes will use electricity, but very little, and there would be no EM radiation. The built in battery could have a lifetime of several months.

3. Undetectable - not compliant. Use black boxes made in Merlin's cave to transmit and receive laser signals. The disadvantage is losing focus, and having the church satellite detect laser activity and equate the activity to electrical use.
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Re: Real Tanks
Post by evilauthor   » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:50 pm

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JRM wrote:Hi,
Here are three possibilities to discuss:

1. Low tech - church compliant. Borrow a light source from welding to get a light that can't be observed directly with the eye. Use optical devices (mirrors, prisms etc.) to direct the signal where you want it to go. The receiver should have parabolic mirrors to focus light within an arc. The received light should be reflected to a horizontal band in a darkened area. The receiver may have multiple receiving mirrors set to cover a full 360 degrees of circumference. The receiving mirror should have a light block from the sky.

2. Undetectable - not compliant. Use black boxes made in Merlin's cave to transmit and receive hypersonic sound waves. The black boxes will use electricity, but very little, and there would be no EM radiation. The built in battery could have a lifetime of several months.

3. Undetectable - not compliant. Use black boxes made in Merlin's cave to transmit and receive laser signals. The disadvantage is losing focus, and having the church satellite detect laser activity and equate the activity to electrical use.


Okay, low tech solutions presume you're trying to comply with the Proscriptions. If you're not going to comply with the Proscriptions, you might as well go whole hog and use Federation comm tech. There's no point to low tech non-compliance solutions when hi tech non-compliant solutions are readily available.

IOW, if you're going to openly flout the Proscriptions, there's no reason to NOT use full up Federation tech.

It should be pretty evident with the latest snippets that Merlin's plan is NOT to tech back up to Federation tech levels completely from scratch. The plan is to start mass producing Federation tech and handing it out as soon as it's politically possible (which includes making sure the OBS doesn't blow the planet away). The whole current teching up is just to get people used to the idea of innovating, not to reinvent everything the Federation had.
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Re: Real Tanks
Post by Annachie   » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:39 pm

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Actually a boosted re-invention of what tte Federation had is what is needed to create the mindset to quickly develope PAST Federation tech levels.
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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Re: Real Tanks
Post by JRM   » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:26 am

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evilauthor wrote:
Okay, low tech solutions presume you're trying to comply with the Proscriptions. If you're not going to comply with the Proscriptions, you might as well go whole hog and use Federation comm tech. There's no point to low tech non-compliance solutions when hi tech non-compliant solutions are readily available.

IOW, if you're going to openly flout the Proscriptions, there's no reason to NOT use full up Federation tech.

It should be pretty evident with the latest snippets that Merlin's plan is NOT to tech back up to Federation tech levels completely from scratch. The plan is to start mass producing Federation tech and handing it out as soon as it's politically possible (which includes making sure the OBS doesn't blow the planet away). The whole current teching up is just to get people used to the idea of innovating, not to reinvent everything the Federation had.


Your statement describes a binary reality. Everyone on Safehold knows, or they don't know. If they know, we jump to full Federation technology. Merlin has been wasting the past decade if that is his final plan.

To proceed from where the last book took us, we can never have a political settlement without the ICN and ICA maintaining a military technology superiority, which gets harder and harder to maintain without violating proscriptions.

Merlin modified the assault shuttle he used to rescue the Earl of Thirsk's family. It didn't set off the OBS, and the violation of proscriptions weren't publicly known.

The Seijins have been taking actions that can only be accomplished as a violation of the proscriptions. The OBS wasn't set off. Everyone that thought about it knew it was a violation of the proscriptions, but church couldn't prove it, and was never in position to punish the Seijins.

The group in the know keeps expanding, and it is not unrealistic to expand the knowledge to elite military units. If they use sealed black boxes that everyone who knows of the boxes knows must violated proscriptions, but the boxes are sealed and the the violation can't be proven, and the OBS can't detect the violation, then we have an expansion of technology without the political settlement, or the OBS destruction.

Interim steps provide time for progress without a war to the death.
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Re: Real Tanks
Post by Whitecold   » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:31 pm

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Black box communications seem like a very bad idea in the long run; One of the main goals of the whole technical innovation is to get people used to thinking.
So a whole lot of people will be asking "but how," and try to pry it apart to get a look inside. I do think comms will keep being limited to the inner circle, who can look up how it works if they want.

Furthermore tanks will be useful even without radio communications; Sure, tanks with radio can beat tanks without, but tanks will beat no tanks, and the opposition is far from getting radio.
Machine guns will be coming, I am sure the opposition will catch on to smokeless powder and metal cartridges, and field guns will be aplenty in any modern army.
Turreted tanks will likely not come alone either. Bulldozers, artillery tractors, self-propelled howitzers, assault guns, troop carriers all base on the same technology, or are even easier to manufacture not needing a turret mechanism, and will be able to take over the role of the mounted brigades.
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Re: Real Tanks
Post by JRM   » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:57 pm

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Whitecold wrote:Black box communications seem like a very bad idea in the long run; One of the main goals of the whole technical innovation is to get people used to thinking.
So a whole lot of people will be asking "but how," and try to pry it apart to get a look inside. I do think comms will keep being limited to the inner circle, who can look up how it works if they want.

Furthermore tanks will be useful even without radio communications; Sure, tanks with radio can beat tanks without, but tanks will beat no tanks, and the opposition is far from getting radio.
Machine guns will be coming, I am sure the opposition will catch on to smokeless powder and metal cartridges, and field guns will be aplenty in any modern army.
Turreted tanks will likely not come alone either. Bulldozers, artillery tractors, self-propelled howitzers, assault guns, troop carriers all base on the same technology, or are even easier to manufacture not needing a turret mechanism, and will be able to take over the role of the mounted brigades.


Hi,

Blackbox wouldn't have been my first choice either. I think option number 1 would do for at least another war. By the way, you have the same communication problems with ships at sea, and dirigibles.

Blackbox is a possible response to an fairly large educated group who understand the proscriptions existing before the OBS is disabled. How do you progress if you need an industrial base to solve the OBS problem, and you only have the security to reveal all to one nation, or a subset of one nation?
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Re: Real Tanks
Post by Annachie   » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:31 pm

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Thinking about it, something like Big Lizzy, apropriately armoured, would make a hell of a trench buster.

http://cyberneticzoo.com/walking-machin ... ustralian/

She's a crude oil engine, but could be steam just as easily I think.
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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still not dead. :)
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