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TFT Snippet #2

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: TFT Snippet #2
Post by evilauthor   » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:21 pm

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n7axw wrote:The OBS has some protection, at least in the form of the lasers that destroyed Owls probes. But battlesteel in all probability was not something they could have manufactured at that point.
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They can't? The TEMPLE is made out of battle steel and it was build AFTER the OBS.

Hell, from the description in the out of order snippet, it sounds like the Temple was designed to survive any repeat of Kau-Yung's "walk in with a nuke" trick. A nuke going off within the Temple would certainly do severe damage, but it sounds like the Temple itself would survive and anything under it would be fully protected.

So given the paranoia that went into designing and building the Temple, would the OBS - you know, the one thing that GUARANTEES the CoGA's power against any surviving Fallen - have any less defense? If the OBS wasn't armor plated before destroying Alexandria, I can certainly see the same people who designed and built the Temple refitting the OBS with armor in addition to surrounding it with a cloud of defense platforms.

Edit: And this doesn't even get into the possibility that Chihiro just out and out replaced an original unarmored OBS with an armored one. He had decades and a fricking starship to work with after all.
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Re: TFT Snippet #2
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:24 pm

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n7axw wrote:I must say that I am a bit surprised at the notion of Eastshare being in the know. I always saw him in the same category as Grey Harbor and Green Mountain as having their faith bred a bit too deeply in the bone for the full truth.

Don

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Unless I missed an update, we don't know how he reacted... It is entirely possible he has to be put to sleep or that he says it is OK but sets about to sabotage the reform, though I see that outcome as very unlikely.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: TFT Snippet #2
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:54 pm

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Erls wrote:Oh, and another thought. We're talking about Orbital Bombardment Station(s). You know, the type of thing that is probably protected with meters of the best battle steel the TF was making. You know, the same material that allowed TF ships to at times survive combat with the Gbaba. Sand/gravel/anything small is going to bounce right off and maybe scratch it or take out a sensor or 3..

Can we return to the realm of the plausible?


Why in the world would they put that kind of armor on it? That greatly increases it's energy signature when it must move--something the designers would not want.

Besides, there's no threat to armor against--it's supposed to keep the culture below pre-space. It's going to have anti-meteor defenses and the ability to move away from anything big.

I do agree it's not going to be threatened by stuff at orbital velocities. It's got something to shrug off the light enough stuff and defenses for the bigger ones. However, it's not going to encounter anything over about 50 km/sec and that only very rarely. That's why I'm saying to go well above that and throw a lot of stuff. It's not going to have massive firepower, it's defenses can be saturated. And even very small stuff at 100 km/sec packs quite a punch. Sand is going to play havoc with anything exposed, gravel will punch through quite a bit of armor. Consider a HEAT anti-tank round--it dumps a lot of energy on the armor but doesn't even try to punch through it. The shock wave goes through, the inside of the armor spalls and the crew is dead. Even if a piece of gravel doesn't go through you'll have some **very** nasty spalling on the inside.

Besides, you don't need a complete kill. Knock it out of commission for a bit and you can follow up on anything that wasn't utterly destroyed.

Now, communication with the Temple is another matter. You can't prevent it getting off a message and there would be a failsafe anyway, even if you could keep it from getting off a message it wouldn't matter.

(Note that if you dumped sand into a bunch of the atmosphere before engaging the OBS satellite you might be able to jam the message.)
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Re: TFT Snippet #2
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:15 am

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C. O. Thompson wrote:
n7axw wrote:I must say that I am a bit surprised at the notion of Eastshare being in the know. I always saw him in the same category as Grey Harbor and Green Mountain as having their faith bred a bit too deeply in the bone for the full truth.

Don

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Unless I missed an update, we don't know how he reacted... It is entirely possible he has to be put to sleep or that he says it is OK but sets about to sabotage the reform, though I see that outcome as very unlikely.


I seem to recall RFC hinting on the forum WAAAAY back that the 2nd half of the war being triggered by Cayleb pushing too fast and revealing the truth to someone he shouldn’t. It was always a fear during the 1st series but although they came close they never truly had an “oops”.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the triggering reveal which could also have a ripple effect on Cayleb and Sharley’s marriage causing a tension that takes a while to resolve. Why else bring it up right now at the beginning with that foreshadowing conversation. If it wasn’t plot important, he would have been told off page like Seamount.
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Re: TFT Snippet #2
Post by shayvaan   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:56 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Erls wrote:Oh, and another thought. We're talking about Orbital Bombardment Station(s). You know, the type of thing that is probably protected with meters of the best battle steel the TF was making. You know, the same material that allowed TF ships to at times survive combat with the Gbaba. Sand/gravel/anything small is going to bounce right off and maybe scratch it or take out a sensor or 3..

Can we return to the realm of the plausible?


Why in the world would they put that kind of armor on it? That greatly increases it's energy signature when it must move--something the designers would not want.

Besides, there's no threat to armor against--it's supposed to keep the culture below pre-space. It's going to have anti-meteor defenses and the ability to move away from anything big.

I do agree it's not going to be threatened by stuff at orbital velocities. It's got something to shrug off the light enough stuff and defenses for the bigger ones. However, it's not going to encounter anything over about 50 km/sec and that only very rarely. That's why I'm saying to go well above that and throw a lot of stuff. It's not going to have massive firepower, it's defenses can be saturated. And even very small stuff at 100 km/sec packs quite a punch. Sand is going to play havoc with anything exposed, gravel will punch through quite a bit of armor. Consider a HEAT anti-tank round--it dumps a lot of energy on the armor but doesn't even try to punch through it. The shock wave goes through, the inside of the armor spalls and the crew is dead. Even if a piece of gravel doesn't go through you'll have some **very** nasty spalling on the inside.

Besides, you don't need a complete kill. Knock it out of commission for a bit and you can follow up on anything that wasn't utterly destroyed.

Now, communication with the Temple is another matter. You can't prevent it getting off a message and there would be a failsafe anyway, even if you could keep it from getting off a message it wouldn't matter.

(Note that if you dumped sand into a bunch of the atmosphere before engaging the OBS satellite you might be able to jam the message.)



No Threat?

What about the Fallen?
There was a whole group of people who had a bunch of dispersed industrial nodes.
From what RFC has said, those nodes were not as capable (individually) as the one that Owl has, but I would imagine that as a group they could have put enough junk in orbit to do what you have suggested and had several years in which to do it.
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Re: TFT Snippet #2
Post by shayvaan   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:15 am

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PlaysWithBees wrote:
I seem to recall RFC hinting on the forum WAAAAY back that the 2nd half of the war being triggered by Cayleb pushing too fast and revealing the truth to someone he shouldn’t. It was always a fear during the 1st series but although they came close they never truly had an “oops”.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the triggering reveal which could also have a ripple effect on Cayleb and Sharley’s marriage causing a tension that takes a while to resolve. Why else bring it up right now at the beginning with that foreshadowing conversation. If it wasn’t plot important, he would have been told off page like Seamount.


Seems a bit early for the triggering reveal since the Return is scheduled for YoG 915 and it is only 901.
Still, they might have an "oops" moment and have to put him in cryo.
Which might make an interesting POV later on when they revive him after it is all said and done.
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Re: TFT Snippet #2
Post by USMA74   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:36 am

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Quoting from a previous post: "Consider a HEAT anti-tank round--it dumps a lot of energy on the armor but doesn't even try to punch through it. The shock wave goes through, the inside of the armor spalls and the crew is dead. Even if a piece of gravel doesn't go through you'll have some **very** nasty spalling on the inside."


Minor quibble. Per two related sites on Wikipedia: "A high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) warhead is a type of shaped charge explosive that uses the Munroe effect to penetrate thick tank armor. The warhead functions by having the explosive charge collapse a metal liner inside the warhead to form a high-velocity superplastic jet of liquid metal. This concentrated liquid metal jet is capable of penetrating armor steel to a depth of seven or more times the diameter of the charge (charge diameters, CD) but is usually used to immobilize or destroy tanks."
High-explosive squash head (HESH) is a type of explosive ammunition that is effective against tank armor and is also useful against buildings. HESH rounds are thin metal shells filled with plastic explosive and a delayed-action base fuse. The plastic explosive is "squashed" against the surface of the target on impact and spreads out to form a disc or "pat" of explosive. The base fuse detonates the explosive milliseconds later, creating a shock wave that, owing to its large surface area and direct contact with the target, is transmitted through the material. In the case of the metal armor of a tank, the compression shock wave is conducted through the armor to the point where it reaches the metal/air interface (the hollow crew compartment), where some of the energy is reflected as a tension wave. At the point where the compression and tension waves intersect, a high-stress zone is created in the metal, causing pieces of steel to be projected off the interior wall at high velocity. This fragmentation by blast wave is known as spalling, with the fragments themselves known as spall. The spall travels through the interior of the vehicle at high velocity, killing or injuring the crew, damaging equipment, and/or igniting ammunition and fuel. Unlike high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds, which are shaped charge ammunition, HESH shells are not specifically designed to perforate the armor of main battle tanks. HESH shells rely instead on the transmission of the shock wave through the solid steel armor."

This type of thing gets former turtles/tread-heads like myself excited. At my increasingly advanced age I am not sure that is a good thing. Time now to return to groveling for another snippet from RFC/MWW. :lol:
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Re: TFT Snippet #2
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:35 pm

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n7axw wrote:I must say that I am a bit surprised at the notion of Eastshare being in the know. I always saw him in the same category as Grey Harbor and Green Mountain as having their faith bred a bit too deeply in the bone for the full truth.

Don

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Unless I missed an update, we don't know how he reacted... It is entirely possible he has to be put to sleep or that he says it is OK but sets about to sabotage the reform, though I see that outcome as very unlikely.[/quote]

I seem to recall RFC hinting on the forum WAAAAY back that the 2nd half of the war being triggered by Cayleb pushing too fast and revealing the truth to someone he shouldn’t. It was always a fear during the 1st series but although they came close they never truly had an “oops”.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the triggering reveal which could also have a ripple effect on Cayleb and Sharley’s marriage causing a tension that takes a while to resolve. Why else bring it up right now at the beginning with that foreshadowing conversation. If it wasn’t plot important, he would have been told off page like Seamount.[/quote]


OK, I guess I can see that but... remember when the little girl, her father and brother were rescued from the concentration camp? The duke goes to bed like normal... and gets the knock out shot. In the morning everyone thinks he is dead and before they embalm him (enter friendly PICA undertaker to) make a switch.

Of course if I was really good at thinking up stories, all of ya'll would be writing in forums on my website :lol:
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: TFT Snippet #2
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:19 pm

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USMA74 wrote:Unlike high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds, which are shaped charge ammunition, HESH shells are not specifically designed to perforate the armor of main battle tanks. HESH shells rely instead on the transmission of the shock wave through the solid steel armor."

This type of thing gets former turtles/tread-heads like myself excited. At my increasingly advanced age I am not sure that is a good thing. Time now to return to groveling for another snippet from RFC/MWW. :lol:


I'll take your word on it--what you are describing as HESH is what I understood HEAT to be. I thought the shaped charge rounds had a different name and were mostly used with rockets rather than guns.
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Re: TFT Snippet #2
Post by Louis R   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:16 pm

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Zipperheads take a keen interest in the stuff the rest of us use to slaughter them, so you can be sure he knows what he's talking about.

You could be thinking of the various configurations of APDS [Armour-Piercing Discarding Sabot] that are the principle weapons they use on each other: modern tank guns have very high muzzle velocities and can get a sub-calibre long rod penetrator through armour that shrugs off any practical HEAT round, so that's what they tend to use, although both HESH and HEAT rounds were still in their kit last time I checked. Basically, by the time the penetrator is inside the tank it's metal vapour and produces the same effects as HEAT, although I'm told that if you get the right shot at least part of it is still solid and it bounces around the inside until something goes BOOM

Loren Pechtel wrote:
USMA74 wrote:Unlike high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds, which are shaped charge ammunition, HESH shells are not specifically designed to perforate the armor of main battle tanks. HESH shells rely instead on the transmission of the shock wave through the solid steel armor."

This type of thing gets former turtles/tread-heads like myself excited. At my increasingly advanced age I am not sure that is a good thing. Time now to return to groveling for another snippet from RFC/MWW. :lol:


I'll take your word on it--what you are describing as HESH is what I understood HEAT to be. I thought the shaped charge rounds had a different name and were mostly used with rockets rather than guns.
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