Safehold post-Jihad

Keith_w wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Thanatos,

While I agree with you, I do believe that pushing for representative governments is the logical progression for the CoC's stance on individual moral responsibility. If God demands the individual be responsible for his moral choices and not simply following Church hierarchy dictates, then would He not also expect the individual to be responsible for choosing his secular governance? Is not government the aggregate embodiment of following God's will? How can that be true unless the individual has some authority to choose their own governance? I believe that argument is the natural extension of everything Charis has done to date.

While this sounds very good, at this point in time it would probably lead to a church lead government in each of the territories involved. The people would see it as "God demands it". And it would be pushed from pulpits across the land. At least in non-Charissian associated states.

Besides, who says that a group of people are any wiser than an individual?

The point isn't that groups are wiser than individuals, but that if ultimate moral responsibility resides in the individual so does secular responsibility. Asserting one, asserts the other. How that responsibility is expressed in governance remains fluid.

I can see the republic being united by a large scale railway network. They would also claim that city north of dohlar giving them an eastern port. That and the canal to the smart would be held by them. Even though they had suffered great loses, such a logistical network, could potentially give them the option of expanding. They would link to silkiah tying them deeply to their sphere of influence.
They would develop so much, that it would force other mainland countries into attempting to mimic them. There would be a huge demand for workers, so I could see an exodus of serfs and slaves coming for work.
Dohlar will likely loose their island holdings, the same for harchong.

Keith_w wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Thanatos,

While I agree with you, I do believe that pushing for representative governments is the logical progression for the CoC's stance on individual moral responsibility. If God demands the individual be responsible for his moral choices and not simply following Church hierarchy dictates, then would He not also expect the individual to be responsible for choosing his secular governance? Is not government the aggregate embodiment of following God's will? How can that be true unless the individual has some authority to choose their own governance? I believe that argument is the natural extension of everything Charis has done to date.

While this sounds very good, at this point in time it would probably lead to a church lead government in each of the territories involved. The people would see it as "God demands it". And it would be pushed from pulpits across the land. At least in non-Charissian associated states.

Besides, who says that a group of people are any wiser than an individual?

While I would imagine that Charis will push for more democratic governments, full-blown democracies are not in their best interests yet.
Until they are able to reveal the full truth, the inner circle needs to maintain control of the EOC at least politically and militarily or the wheels could come off pretty quickly.

shayvaan wrote:
While I would imagine that Charis will push for more democratic governments, full-blown democracies are not in their best interests yet.
Until they are able to reveal the full truth, the inner circle needs to maintain control of the EOC at least politically and militarily or the wheels could come off pretty quickly.

Charis already has a semi-democratic form of government resembling that of the United Kingdom in the 1800s in that there is an elected lower house of commoners. However, the ruler is under no obligation to pay any attention to it, especially since it has no authority over money bills.

Keith_w wrote:

shayvaan wrote:
While I would imagine that Charis will push for more democratic governments, full-blown democracies are not in their best interests yet.
Until they are able to reveal the full truth, the inner circle needs to maintain control of the EOC at least politically and militarily or the wheels could come off pretty quickly.

Charis already has a semi-democratic form of government resembling that of the United Kingdom in the 1800s in that there is an elected lower house of commoners. However, the ruler is under no obligation to pay any attention to it, especially since it has no authority over money bills.

I recall that Charisian Parliament had to confirm the Crown Prince. Do I recall correctly? If I have, then their victory against the CoGA may place Parliament as the body which confirms a new king. Certainly, the CoC will either give its endorsement or not, but I don't see Archbishop Mykel retaining the role of ultimate authority to bestow the Charisian Crown upon a would be king. Instead Mykel would confirm a greater separation between the CoC and direct secular power.

This brings us back to the notion of either Parliamentary or popular confirmation of the Charisian monarch. I suspect something will be in place when the story resumes.

SYED wrote:I can see the republic being united by a large scale railway network. They would also claim that city north of dohlar giving them an eastern port. That and the canal to the smart would be held by them. Even though they had suffered great loses, such a logistical network, could potentially give them the option of expanding. They would link to silkiah tying them deeply to their sphere of influence.
They would develop so much, that it would force other mainland countries into attempting to mimic them. There would be a huge demand for workers, so I could see an exodus of serfs and slaves coming for work.
Dohlar will likely loose their island holdings, the same for harchong.

The pre Sword of Shueler maps suggests that Dairnyth was indeed part of the Republic. I can see Siddermark demanding that as part of the reparations for participating in the Jihad. Building railroads to connect most of Southeast Siddermark to Siddar City, Thesmar and Dairnyth seems a logical move.

Forcing Desnair to accept their Silkiahn border to be pushed south to somewhere along the North Watch isthmus would also be a reasonable demand for Desnair's aggression. Between losing Khreos to Silkiah and having the Salthar Canal broadened to accept ocean going ships, Desnair's economy will have been hammered by the time the story resumes.

I doubt Dohlar will lose all their islands. If Silkiah allows an ICN base at Port Salthar, the ICN would only need Claw Island, Jack's Land and Trove island to have an effective base network in the Gulf of Dohlar. If they also establish bases on Samson's Land, Greentree Island and Westbreak Island, the ICN will have a naval base network to project power darn near anywhere they wish. Granted they will have to use King Haaralds or her progeny to patrol the Harhcong coast of the Hsing-wu Passage, but they can approach from Sherherd Bay on Hill Island or Spinefish Bay.

Building the next generation King Haaralds will have as much to do with the rest of Safehold adopting Charisian tech as the railroads Siddermark will be building. When Charis can reach out and touch any coastal town with those monster guns, no nation can feel safe unless they have a counter.

PeterZ wrote:The pre Sword of Shueler maps suggests that Dairnyth was indeed part of the Republic. I can see Siddermark demanding that as part of the reparations for participating in the Jihad. Building railroads to connect most of Southeast Siddermark to Siddar City, Thesmar and Dairnyth seems a logical move.

Forcing Desnair to accept their Silkiahn border to be pushed south to somewhere along the North Watch isthmus would also be a reasonable demand for Desnair's aggression. Between losing Khreos to Silkiah and having the Salthar Canal broadened to accept ocean going ships, Desnair's economy will have been hammered by the time the story resumes.

I doubt Dohlar will lose all their islands. If Silkiah allows an ICN base at Port Salthar, the ICN would only need Claw Island, Jack's Land and Trove island to have an effective base network in the Gulf of Dohlar. If they also establish bases on Samson's Land, Greentree Island and Westbreak Island, the ICN will have a naval base network to project power darn near anywhere they wish. Granted they will have to use King Haaralds or her progeny to patrol the Harhcong coast of the Hsing-wu Passage, but they can approach from Sherherd Bay on Hill Island or Spinefish Bay.

Building the next generation King Haaralds will have as much to do with the rest of Safehold adopting Charisian tech as the railroads Siddermark will be building. When Charis can reach out and touch any coastal town with those monster guns, no nation can feel safe unless they have a counter.

RFC has yet to disclose the specifics on how the Border Kingdoms were created though we do know that Silkiah was created as a demilitarized (to some extent) buffer state between Desnair and Siddarmark after thelast war between them. We can assume that Desnair might lose some territory or else be forced to accept harsh disarmament terms. By the same token and given the wide chasm that now exists between the Church and Siddarmark, the latter are likely to demand a rethinking of the security arrangements throughout the border states. They too might lose some territory as well. Dohlar is a more ticklish proposition. I can easily see Charis demanding control of several of many of the Islands in the Seas of Harchong for naval bases, by way of an insurance policy. Harchong might not like that but then again it isn't in a position to really stop Charis from permanently seizing control of those Islands. I can also see Dohlar losing the Duchy of Thorast (or part of it), which is where much of the fighting occurred in the Southern Theater. But the end of AtSoT makes clear that the map of Safehold has not been radically redrawn.

Moreover, having watched Oliver Stone's series "The Untold History of America", I get the feeling that while Merlin and the Inner Circle decided to end the Jihad by supporting Duchairn's coup, they were motivated by more than simple war fatigue and guilt. I think that pursuing a fight to the finish, would not have been in the best interests of Charis (especially in light of the history of WWII). At present, Charis is both the wealthiest and most powerful realm in all of Safehold with Siddarmark in second place. One might consider it a super power with Siddarmark as a regional power. And with Merlin and Nimue's advanced technology, Charis doesn't need to fear and mistrust either its allies or its vanquished foes the way the British and the US feared the Soviet Union (and vice versa) during WWII. They can count on having ample warning before a war breaks out in order to prepare. They can also count on their "spies" telling them that tensions are building up in any potential hot spot and head it off, either with diplomacy or some handy bribe. They can also send the "Seijin" off to assist in those hot spots and perhaps aid in advancing Charis' moral beliefs in less militant ways - Like perhaps preserving the lives of key players who might council moderation in victory or else pro-reform leaders who might not be totally on board with the Empire of Charis' economic interests. They have the luxury of such overwhelming power that they can be generous and magnanimous without looking weak to their own people and without incurring the ill will the US incurred doing the Cold War. And a cold war is what we are likely to see in the next novel.

I totally concur, Thanatos.

As it relates to republicanism, Charis can either seek the goodwill of governments or the goodwill of their people. By championing the concept of "consent of the governed", Charis appeals directly to the peoples of Safehold. So long as they don't forcibly impose their policies, they retain the goodwill of the people, if not the goodwill of the governments.

Forex, the greatest terms of assistance are reserved for republics and unless there is a minimum amount of liberty for a nation's citizens, Charis won't help at all.

PeterZ wrote:I totally concur, Thanatos.

As it relates to republicanism, Charis can either seek the goodwill of governments or the goodwill of their people. By championing the concept of "consent of the governed", Charis appeals directly to the peoples of Safehold. So long as they don't forcibly impose their policies, they retain the goodwill of the people, if not the goodwill of the governments.

Forex, the greatest terms of assistance are reserved for republics and unless there is a minimum amount of liberty for a nation's citizens, Charis won't help at all.

That's probably going to be the case, though I do have to wonder whether Siddarmark and Dohlar are going to remain friendly (or at least, not hostile) in the long run. The end of AtSoT, Stohnar is somewhat disgruntled about Charis giving such generous terms to Dohlar, though this disgruntlement is mitigated to an extent by Charis' generosity in Siddarmark. Much would also depend on Stohnar's authority after the Jihad. It's been pointed out that the franchise was still limited to a degree in Siddarmark prior to the Jihad. Stohnar now needs to address many of the social issues that Clyntahn exploited in order to launch to Sword of Schueler, like the franchise and the "statehood" of the South March. And he has to do this with at least a quarter of his population being Temple Loyalists despite the Jihad and with a serious refugee crisis to resolve at the same time. Also, about a fifth of his population adheres openly to the Church of Charis. It is entirely possible that those Siddarmarkians might be viewed as a fifth column by others. Now that I think of it, if they are in fact a fifth of the population, I can see them called the "Fifth Column" as a play on words.

The bigger question is what the Temple Lands and the Church does on this issue. Charis might specifically exclude the Church from any financial largesse but the Temple Lands might be a separate issue. Also, I had a thought yesterday about the Cold War and how West Berlin was this constant eyesore for the Communists - An island of wealth and freedom (and capitalism) in the very heart of their communist client state, and one they felt obligated to wall up. Now imagine the construction of a Siddarmarkian and Charisian Quarter on the outskirts of Zion (far outside the Temple perimeter). They would be building high rises and office buildings with modern machinery and perhaps even a subway. It would probably include the Charisian and Siddarmarkian embassies and economic missions, thus becoming a financial center the Temple would have to live with (in the interest of maintaining the peace) and a target for public outrage by hardcore Temple Loyalists. It's construction might well become a stipulation for any financial aid the Temple might need from Charis.

thanatos wrote:snip
Also, I had a thought yesterday about the Cold War and how West Berlin was this constant eyesore for the Communists - An island of wealth and freedom (and capitalism) in the very heart of their communist client state, and one they felt obligated to wall up. Now imagine the construction of a Siddarmarkian and Charisian Quarter on the outskirts of Zion (far outside the Temple perimeter). They would be building high rises and office buildings with modern machinery and perhaps even a subway. It would probably include the Charisian and Siddarmarkian embassies and economic missions, thus becoming a financial center the Temple would have to live with (in the interest of maintaining the peace) and a target for public outrage by hardcore Temple Loyalists. It's construction might well become a stipulation for any financial aid the Temple might need from Charis.

The idea has an elegant appeal. The only issue is that such a conclave would be a reflection of the amount of business Charis engages in. The more business they do, the larger the conclave and the more similarities between the two nations. That would not spark the sort of in your face reminder of impotence Berlin represented. More like a constant standard to measure one's national accomplishments against.

Still, let's pursue this idea, shall we? Where can such an enclave find organic support? As I see it, there are several cities that will need a strong Charisian commercial presence; Port Salthar, Dairnyth, Lake City and Greentree Island.

Would anyone else like to chime in?