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(SPOILERS) Too worried about waking up Dad?

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Re: Too worried about waking up Dad?
Post by PalmerSperry   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:59 am

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abrax894 wrote:Now, while there are LOT's of holes in the plan, one that you CAN'T use is 'Because you might wake up the OBS and it will kill all of Safehold/Charis'. Why? Well, if a rock comes along, how is any system going to know where it came from? The system has to be looking for ground based attacks (though it may be looking for space based attacks too, but even if it is it's not going to start slamming the planet because of it). I was pointing out that you can't use that as a catch all as a way to get around every persons idea. THAT WAS ALL. I'm well aware that you don't want to alert the OBS to the presence of Charis at later tech level's or that those capabilities exist, BUT, a rock tumbling through space is probably going to trigger a simple defense response NOT a 'My God My God we're all going to die!' response. After all, didn't Merlin send a HIGHLY ADVANCED SNARC remote in to take a look? And was it not destroyed? That remote was more advanced than a rock, why would the OBS act differently?


A rock tumbling through space is almost certain not to activate the OBS nor "wake up dad". As you say, two attempts with SNARCs didn't. However a large enough, big enough cloud of rocks that the OBS can neither dodge nor defend itself against? That's just slightly different from "a rock tumbling through space"!

Personally I suspect that the OBS has been tracking both Merlin's SNARCs and his recon skimmer. However since (apart from the two SNARCs used to probe the OBS) none of them have come into the "exclusion zone" programmed into the OBS it's had no reason to do anything. Plus it probably regards them as "archangel activity", since I suspect it was programmed to ignore the archangels doing similar things. There's presumably a proper signal to send if you want to approach the OBS, but of course Merlin doesn't know it.
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Re: Too worried about waking up Dad?
Post by Duckk   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:13 pm

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Plus it probably regards them as "archangel activity", since I suspect it was programmed to ignore the archangels doing similar things. There's presumably a proper signal to send if you want to approach the OBS, but of course Merlin doesn't know it.


That's a point that David brings up:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4160&p=95569

Moreover, there is a quantum leap between the initial production of electricity and the highly advanced applications of it inherent in Merlin's toys. In effect, it would be relatively simple to build a protocol into the bombardment platform's sensors (assuming, of course, that the sensors are actually prepared to blast technology on the planetary surface in the first place) which differentiates between "technology so advanced it must be being used by the 'archangels'" and "technology so crude that it couldn't be being used by the 'archangels.'" If it's the latter, it needs to be smitten . . . quickly; if it's the former, leave it alone because it's being used on Langhorne's business.

In that respect, Merlin is hiding in the shadow of the original archangels. Although that, of course, assumes that all of his carefully stealthed technology is detectable in the first place. He has no intention of giving away any more detectable signature than he can avoid, of course, but from the perspective of the reader that "shadow" should always be borne in mind
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Re: Too worried about waking up Dad?
Post by abrax894   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:45 pm

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Okay, let's get something strait here, I am no longer advocating direct action against the Temple/OBS. I thought I had made that clear but apparently it's going over some peoples head. What I'm saying is, 'Don't wake up the OBS' is not a catch all for every idea that comes up. The EXAMPLE I used, was of a large asteroid or group of asteroids set into the orbital past of the OBS to take it out. YES, it has holes in it, BUT, waking up the OBS is not one. It may trigger a defensive reaction but it WILL NOT cause it to start randomly striking out at anyone who LOOKS like they may be starting to advance.

The point of this article was that this reason/excuse isn't a catch all. I was pointing out how lazy it was for people to respond with it when the idea has almost NO chance of waking the OBS the way they are worried about. That is ALL I was saying. I was not promoting any specific way of taking the OBS/Temple out.
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Re: Too worried about waking up Dad?
Post by n7axw   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:32 pm

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abrax894 wrote:Okay, let's get something strait here, I am no longer advocating direct action against the Temple/OBS. I thought I had made that clear but apparently it's going over some peoples head. What I'm saying is, 'Don't wake up the OBS' is not a catch all for every idea that comes up. The EXAMPLE I used, was of a large asteroid or group of asteroids set into the orbital past of the OBS to take it out. YES, it has holes in it, BUT, waking up the OBS is not one. It may trigger a defensive reaction but it WILL NOT cause it to start randomly striking out at anyone who LOOKS like they may be starting to advance.

The point of this article was that this reason/excuse isn't a catch all. I was pointing out how lazy it was for people to respond with it when the idea has almost NO chance of waking the OBS the way they are worried about. That is ALL I was saying. I was not promoting any specific way of taking the OBS/Temple out.


You really don't know what will wake up the OBS. Merlin's skimmer doesn't do it. Steam didn't do it even though steam is a violation of the prescriptions. Everybody is afraid that the introduction of electricity would do it. The only thing that got its attention so far is Merlin's snarc approaching it. You really don't know that it doesn't have a protocol to react to any threat, including approaching asteroids. Had I been designing the thing, that's exactly what it would have.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Too worried about waking up Dad?
Post by abrax894   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:55 pm

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Did I at any time say that it wouldn't react? I said it would not react by randomly destroying the most advanced city or nation on the planet. DEFENSIVE action yes, seek and destroy, no.
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Re: Too worried about waking up Dad?
Post by runsforcelery   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:12 am

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abrax894 wrote:Did I at any time say that it wouldn't react? I said it would not react by randomly destroying the most advanced city or nation on the planet. DEFENSIVE action yes, seek and destroy, no.


Okay, the problem here is that no one knows what the bombardment system will do. For that matter, they don't know that it won't put in a wake-up call to Dad (or whatever's under the Temple, assuming something is). In short, there is absolutely no way to be sure it would react defensively by simply shooting down the incoming rocks (or whatever). Federation AIs were fully capable of exercising discretion after analysis of very complex data. If there's a military-grade AI up there, it would definitely recognize what you have suggested as a hostile act. It would then begin tracing back its origins, looking at its sensor data to determine who could have launched it. It will know it damned well wasn't the Gbaba, who wouldn't be bothering with throwing rocks at it, and that means it had to be a human agency. That means there is a hostile human force, a successor to the Alexandria Enclave and Commodore Pei, with access to advanced technology and obviously intend on destroying the OBS and, by implication, Langhorne's master plan.

How is Merlin or anyone else supposed to know what its instructions are in that sort of situation? Remember that when it was put in place it was also equipped with a highly sophisticated and capable defensive capability. Are they supposed to assume that the same paranoid type who gave it defensive weaponry --- which obviously meant that paranoid individual was contemplating the possibility of an attack upon it which might make those defenses necessary --- didn't also give a little thought to response hierarchies if a new human enemy of The Plan emerged to claim Shan-wei's mantle?

There are all sorts of ways the bombardment system might be attacked, assuming Merlin has the resources for them. He does not, BTW, have the resources for most of the suggestions which have been bruited about. Unfortunately, he has no idea how capable the software running the system really is. He knows it's good enough to keep the system up and running, with repairs as needed, for the better part of a thousand years. He knows it was good enough to take out the Alexandria Enclave (presumably under human control), and he will shortly (in HFQ) receive evidence that it could be used for something rather smaller than smashing entire enclaves.

The thing is, waking up a stored electronic "archangel" under the Temple, or crossing the threat perimeter of the OBS, is the sort of mistake he probably gets to make only once. If he and the inner circle make the wrong move one time, it's game over. And if it's game over for Charis --- and if Merlin and Nimue are hunted down and taken out --- then it's game over for humanity the next time they run into the Gbaba.

I think that's what a lot of people are missing here. A lot of readers have pet projects they would like to see Merlin & Co. pursuing, pieces of technology they would like to see used, sneaky ways the system might be evaded or worked around. They are, however, readers, outside the paradigm Merlin faces in the books. He is going to be insanely cautious, and as long as Charis is winning anyway, he is most definitely not going to try to jumpstart or rush the process. There might be only a 2% chance that sending a swarm of rocks at the OBS (which, by the way, would not get through its defenses) assuming he had the capacity to do so (which he doesn't), would cause the OBS or the command station under the Temple or whatever to pull the trigger and reduce Safehold to the Stone Age. Do you really think a rational person would run that 2% risk unless he absolutely had to? There's a reason he wouldn't even allow steam power until he'd set up a test target on an uninhabited island thousands of miles away from any human settlement.

There are things he can do without leaving footprints that would necessarily point to advanced technology, and he's done some of them. He's doing more of them in the more recent books, as well. He is not going to start dipping into his bag of god weapons with gay abandon, however, for reasons which I've laid out repeatedly. You may disagree with his decisions, and that's your prerogative, but that isn't going to change the fundamental logic under which he is proceeding.

There may well come a time when his hand is forced. Until that time arrives, however, he is going to proceed exactly as he has to this point. While he would love to get a look inside the Temple --- assuming that could be done without his own electronic gizzards setting off all sorts of alarms --- he isn't going to poke his nose into it until/unless he has to. Instead, he will continue his plan to so fundamentally change Safehold --- and the Church --- that even if an "archangel" wakes up, the "rot" will have spread so deeply that the archangel in question really would have to blast Safehold into the Stone Age to reset the clock. Indeed, he fully intends to push matters so far that the truth is revealed to all of Safehold before the deadline for the millennial return. In the meantime, he is also perfectly willing to make a suicide run into the Temple with a nuke strapped to his back if that's the only way to prevent it from waking up prematurely. It's not something he wants to do, for all the reasons I've enumerated (repeatedly), but he's willing to do it if he has no other option.

I suspect that the people who think he's being too cautious haven't really fully succeeded in putting themselves in his place.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Too worried about waking up Dad?
Post by Joat42   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:06 am

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runsforcelery wrote:..snip..
He knows it was good enough to take out the Alexandria Enclave (presumably under human control), and he will shortly (in HFQ) receive evidence that it could be used for something rather smaller than smashing entire enclaves.
..snip..

That's an interesting tidbit of information. There are 2 scenarios here:
  1. Some documentation/information from for example Nynian reveals this capacity which may have been used during the suppression of Shan Wei et al.
  2. Doing for example recon of an area reveals small craters that only can have come from OBS impacts.

Me, I believe in option #1.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Too worried about waking up Dad?
Post by BobG   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:21 am

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Joat42 wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:..snip..
He knows it was good enough to take out the Alexandria Enclave (presumably under human control), and he will shortly (in HFQ) receive evidence that it could be used for something rather smaller than smashing entire enclaves.
..snip..

That's an interesting tidbit of information. There are 2 scenarios here:
  1. Some documentation/information from for example Nynian reveals this capacity which may have been used during the suppression of Shan Wei et al.
  2. Doing for example recon of an area reveals small craters that only can have come from OBS impacts.

Me, I believe in option #1.

Or option 3, something triggers a smaller response against a technology target.

Or option 4, some action (like Magwear leading an army against the Temple and Clyntyhn) triggers a defensive action by the ORBS.

Of course, if that happens, all bets are definitely off.

-- Bob G

P.S. Could OWL build a defensive system with nuclear warheads to intercept the ORBS rocks above the atmosphere? Say 100km to 200km up?
SF & Fantasy: The only things better than Chocolate.
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Re: Too worried about waking up Dad?
Post by Joat42   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:00 am

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BobG wrote:
Joat42 wrote:That's an interesting tidbit of information. There are 2 scenarios here:
  1. Some documentation/information from for example Nynian reveals this capacity which may have been used during the suppression of Shan Wei et al.
  2. Doing for example recon of an area reveals small craters that only can have come from OBS impacts.

Me, I believe in option #1.

Or option 3, something triggers a smaller response against a technology target.

Or option 4, some action (like Magwear leading an army against the Temple and Clyntyhn) triggers a defensive action by the ORBS.

Of course, if that happens, all bets are definitely off.

-- Bob G

P.S. Could OWL build a defensive system with nuclear warheads to intercept the ORBS rocks above the atmosphere? Say 100km to 200km up?


runsforcelery wrote:..snip..
He knows it was good enough to take out the Alexandria Enclave (presumably under human control), and he will shortly (in HFQ) receive evidence that it could be used for something rather smaller than smashing entire enclaves.
..snip..


RFC states that it "could be used", not that it will be used. It is a world of difference.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Too worried about waking up Dad?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:46 am

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I think that the real best option would be to take someone, Father Paityr comes to mind, give them very thorough training in the operation of computers, and then after planning for as many contingincies as possible, infiltrate the temple and go to the basement.

Face it. Until that computer is accessed, Merlin isn't going to know what he is really up against and for obvious reasons, he can't do it himself.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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