Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

The destruction of Chava

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
The destruction of Chava
Post by StealthSeeker   » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:57 pm

StealthSeeker
Commander

Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:31 am

The one thing I look forward to in the next book it the destruction of Chava. The conspirator who was sent running into the night with the head of Chava's co-conspirator knows that he was recruited by Chava to be part of the assassination attempt. He will be found by the security personal and under interrogation will implicate Chava. This should make Chava (and his family/sons) the hated objects of an intense manhunt.

How long will it take for his part in the assassination to be revealed? What kinds of justice will be inflicted on him? What will happen to his empire? Will that returning soldier who was adopted by the dead prince's falcon(?) have a part to play in events? If so it would be a great tie in.

Maybe he'll be fed to the sharks he intended Andrin to be consumed by?

What imaginative ideas can you come up with?
-
-
I think therefore I am.... I think
Top
Re: The destruction of Chava
Post by thanatos   » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:09 pm

thanatos
Commander

Posts: 221
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:29 pm
Location: United States

StealthSeeker wrote:The one thing I look forward to in the next book it the destruction of Chava. The conspirator who was sent running into the night with the head of Chava's co-conspirator knows that he was recruited by Chava to be part of the assassination attempt. He will be found by the security personal and under interrogation will implicate Chava. This should make Chava (and his family/sons) the hated objects of an intense manhunt.

How long will it take for his part in the assassination to be revealed? What kinds of justice will be inflicted on him? What will happen to his empire? Will that returning soldier who was adopted by the dead prince's falcon(?) have a part to play in events? If so it would be a great tie in.

Maybe he'll be fed to the sharks he intended Andrin to be consumed by?

What imaginative ideas can you come up with?


Unlikely, for a variety of reasons. First and foremost is the fact that Chava is a far smoother operator than the Seneschal of Othmaliz, which is why he had him eliminated and "planted" evidence of Arcanan involvement. But unless they get really lucky, they aren't likely to find the one person who can link Chava to it. They will certainly suspect Chava, given that the Seneschal was essentially a coward and an idiot (i.e. the perfect tool) but they wouldn't have any evidence.

Yet the one big problem would be that both Zindal and Andrin both survived the assassination and that Andrin and Howan Fai overheard the assassins on the boats. That coupled with Dr. Shalassar Kolmayr-Brintal's warning to Alazon Yanamar about him and the Order of Berghal will point most of the evidence towards him. Of course, his death would raise the question of who had him killed and lead to the inevitable conclusion that he wasn't working alone. But Chava seems to be clever enough to at least steer formal suspicion away from himself, even though Andrin and Zindal are smart enough to guess that he was involved. What they may be able to do however is make certain demands upon Uromathia, specifically in regards to the amount of military power they will be required to commit, that Chava will be forced to comply with, if only to prove that he had nothing to do with the assassination. Indeed, they could probably communicate to him privately and quietly that unless he provides said troops, they will release the obvious conclusion that the Seneschal was not operating alone and that only one person stood to benefit from Zindal and Andrin's deaths.
Top
Re: The destruction of Chava
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:23 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4641
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

thanatos wrote:
StealthSeeker wrote:The one thing I look forward to in the next book it the destruction of Chava. The conspirator who was sent running into the night with the head of Chava's co-conspirator knows that he was recruited by Chava to be part of the assassination attempt. He will be found by the security personal and under interrogation will implicate Chava. This should make Chava (and his family/sons) the hated objects of an intense manhunt.

How long will it take for his part in the assassination to be revealed? What kinds of justice will be inflicted on him? What will happen to his empire? Will that returning soldier who was adopted by the dead prince's falcon(?) have a part to play in events? If so it would be a great tie in.

Maybe he'll be fed to the sharks he intended Andrin to be consumed by?

What imaginative ideas can you come up with?


Unlikely, for a variety of reasons. First and foremost is the fact that Chava is a far smoother operator than the Seneschal of Othmaliz, which is why he had him eliminated and "planted" evidence of Arcanan involvement. But unless they get really lucky, they aren't likely to find the one person who can link Chava to it. They will certainly suspect Chava, given that the Seneschal was essentially a coward and an idiot (i.e. the perfect tool) but they wouldn't have any evidence.

Yet the one big problem would be that both Zindal and Andrin both survived the assassination and that Andrin and Howan Fai overheard the assassins on the boats. That coupled with Dr. Shalassar Kolmayr-Brintal's warning to Alazon Yanamar about him and the Order of Berghal will point most of the evidence towards him. Of course, his death would raise the question of who had him killed and lead to the inevitable conclusion that he wasn't working alone. But Chava seems to be clever enough to at least steer formal suspicion away from himself, even though Andrin and Zindal are smart enough to guess that he was involved. What they may be able to do however is make certain demands upon Uromathia, specifically in regards to the amount of military power they will be required to commit, that Chava will be forced to comply with, if only to prove that he had nothing to do with the assassination. Indeed, they could probably communicate to him privately and quietly that unless he provides said troops, they will release the obvious conclusion that the Seneschal was not operating alone and that only one person stood to benefit from Zindal and Andrin's deaths.


My own theory on this is that Drindel the shark caller will be apprehended and spill the beans on Chava in the interrogation.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: The destruction of Chava
Post by StealthSeeker   » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:04 pm

StealthSeeker
Commander

Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:31 am

n7axw wrote:
My own theory on this is that Drindel the shark caller will be apprehended and spill the beans on Chava in the interrogation.

Don

-


Yes, this is more my take on things. The investigators will bring in one of those people gifted with being able to "view" what took place when the Seneschal was killed. They will see this person sent running away with the head in the bag and they will hunt him down and bring him back for questioning. At this point they will know of Chava's involvement and will go after him. The question becomes, what kind of interesting mess does this create on Sharona? Could be interesting.

Similarly, on Arcana, the situation for the "2000" (who's name I can't remember) that sent Harshu to his doom, along with his fellow political group, are going to start finding themselves in more "difficulties." The lies from their end are starting to unravel. I doubt that a total entrapment and capture/destruction of Harshu was part of his plan. And now that the communications lines are cut, he may not be able to send the message that would trigger the killing of his intelligence lackey at the front. Not to mention the capture of his ambassador lackey. Things are going to fall apart and get "interesting" in Arcana as well.
-
-
I think therefore I am.... I think
Top
Re: The destruction of Chava
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:34 pm

Howard T. Map-addict
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1392
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Stealth Seeker,

That Commander of 2,000 is Nith mul Gurthak.
His Plans for Harshu and several other top officers
were described in Book Two. In particular, the message
to trigger the killing of 500 Neshok, was to be the
promotion of Javelin Porath to Sword.

Harshu was not yet destroyed at the end of Book Three.
Porath was promoted to Sword early in the book, but he
did *not* murder Neshok, or himself, on receiving that
promotion. They were both still alive near the end of
the book, when Harshu's force was last seen.

But other than that, Arcanan things are unraveling, as you say.

HTM

StealthSeeker wrote:
{snip - htm}

Similarly, on Arcana, the situation for the "2000"
(who's name I can't remember) that sent Harshu to his doom,
along with his fellow political group, are going to start
finding themselves in more "difficulties." The lies from
their end are starting to unravel. I doubt that a total
entrapment and capture/destruction of Harshu was part of
his plan. And now that the communications lines are cut,
he may not be able to send the message that would trigger
the killing of his intelligence lackey at the front.
Not to mention the capture of his ambassador lackey. Things are
going to fall apart and get "interesting" in Arcana as well.
Top
Re: The destruction of Chava
Post by StealthSeeker   » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:23 pm

StealthSeeker
Commander

Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:31 am

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Stealth Seeker,

(snip)

But other than that, Arcanan things are unraveling, as you say.

HTM


HTM,

Yep, Things are going to get interesting on Arcana. But so far Mr. Weber has kept a symmetry going between the two home worlds. There is a political division on Arcana such that a political group is trying to use the situation to their advandage causing a significant split in their unity. At the same time on Sharona a similar but yet different political conflict is causing a split in their unity, leading to similar (but different) types of splits and problems.

It's a symmetry in story telling that I expect to continue in the next book. Which, to me, says that Chava is going to suffer, or start to suffer, a bad end. And for me, Chava is the so-and-so character that I most want to have arrive at a wickedly good inglorious "bad end", and soon!

I was hoping that other readers might share their wonderfully imaginative thoughts on how Chava could meet his "bad end". Any ideas or comments to share?
-
-
I think therefore I am.... I think
Top
Re: The destruction of Chava
Post by n7axw   » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:30 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4641
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

StealthSeeker wrote:
Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Stealth Seeker,

(snip)

But other than that, Arcanan things are unraveling, as you say.

HTM


HTM,

Yep, Things are going to get interesting on Arcana. But so far Mr. Weber has kept a symmetry going between the two home worlds. There is a political division on Arcana such that a political group is trying to use the situation to their advandage causing a significant split in their unity. At the same time on Sharona a similar but yet different political conflict is causing a split in their unity, leading to similar (but different) types of splits and problems.

It's a symmetry in story telling that I expect to continue in the next book. Which, to me, says that Chava is going to suffer, or start to suffer, a bad end. And for me, Chava is the so-and-so character that I most want to have arrive at a wickedly good inglorious "bad end", and soon!

I was hoping that other readers might share their wonderfully imaginative thoughts on how Chava could meet his "bad end". Any ideas or comments to share?


The situation on Sharona is not easy, but has the vitrue of being comparatively straightforward. The situation on Arcana is more clouded. The bad guys are still representing Arcana to the Sharonians and we are left wondering when the good guys will step up to the plate and assume responsibility for the mess mul Gurthak has created.

As for Chava, discovering his involvement in the assassination plot might mean that he tries to reassert Uromathia's independence rather than submitting to Caliraths and facing justice for what he has done, How does the rest of Sharona react to that?

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: The destruction of Chava
Post by Louis R   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:22 pm

Louis R
Commodore

Posts: 993
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:25 pm

hmmmm...

You've pointed this out before, but I hadn't considered the implications. Either:

a) it was supposed to be a promotion by _mul_Gurthak_ that triggered Porath, and the promotion actually came from some other authority [either a 'time in grade' bump from the Commandery or Harshu did it for some reason] so the spell didn't trigger; or

b) the control spells needed to cause somebody to kill a selected target are subtler and more complex even than the gryphon spells. We have reason to suspect that the latter are breaking down, it would be even more likely that mul Gurthak's spells have failed completely. Which, BTW, suggests that the assassination protocol he was planning to use with Harshu will also fail. OOPS!

In the first case, he's an idiot not to have anticipated this - not, I have to say, unlikely given that it's mul Gurthak. He gets off the hook in the second case since it's a completely unanticipated effect of moving up-chain towards Sharona, but he probably should have considered the possibility that something would happen to Porath and gone with a simpler plan. Like visiting the front and sticking the knife in personally.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Stealth Seeker,

That Commander of 2,000 is Nith mul Gurthak.
His Plans for Harshu and several other top officers
were described in Book Two. In particular, the message
to trigger the killing of 500 Neshok, was to be the
promotion of Javelin Porath to Sword.

Harshu was not yet destroyed at the end of Book Three.
Porath was promoted to Sword early in the book, but he
did *not* murder Neshok, or himself, on receiving that
promotion. They were both still alive near the end of
the book, when Harshu's force was last seen.

But other than that, Arcanan things are unraveling, as you say.

HTM

Top
Re: The destruction of Chava
Post by thanatos   » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:23 pm

thanatos
Commander

Posts: 221
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:29 pm
Location: United States

Louis R wrote:hmmmm...

You've pointed this out before, but I hadn't considered the implications. Either:

a) it was supposed to be a promotion by _mul_Gurthak_ that triggered Porath, and the promotion actually came from some other authority [either a 'time in grade' bump from the Commandery or Harshu did it for some reason] so the spell didn't trigger; or

b) the control spells needed to cause somebody to kill a selected target are subtler and more complex even than the gryphon spells. We have reason to suspect that the latter are breaking down, it would be even more likely that mul Gurthak's spells have failed completely. Which, BTW, suggests that the assassination protocol he was planning to use with Harshu will also fail. OOPS!

In the first case, he's an idiot not to have anticipated this - not, I have to say, unlikely given that it's mul Gurthak. He gets off the hook in the second case since it's a completely unanticipated effect of moving up-chain towards Sharona, but he probably should have considered the possibility that something would happen to Porath and gone with a simpler plan. Like visiting the front and sticking the knife in personally.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Stealth Seeker,

That Commander of 2,000 is Nith mul Gurthak.
His Plans for Harshu and several other top officers
were described in Book Two. In particular, the message
to trigger the killing of 500 Neshok, was to be the
promotion of Javelin Porath to Sword.

Harshu was not yet destroyed at the end of Book Three.
Porath was promoted to Sword early in the book, but he
did *not* murder Neshok, or himself, on receiving that
promotion. They were both still alive near the end of
the book, when Harshu's force was last seen.

But other than that, Arcanan things are unraveling, as you say.

HTM



Upon rereading HHNF, mul Gurthik's assassination protocol is triggered by Porath's promotion from Javelin to Sword. In RTH, Porath is promoted from Shield to Javelin. As such, that protocol has not been activated as of yet. Obviously, mul Gurthik is likely to activate it once he gets Neshok's veiled threat if he does not protect him from the court martial he will face. Yet the one question that remains is whether mul Gurthik's "promotion" of Porath could even reach him given the fact that Harshu's position is now cut off and that he will soon himself under attack. Do the hummers have the sort of range needed to send a message directly from Erthus to Karys? In HG, hummers are said to fly distance of over a thousand miles at speeds of over 150 miles per hour (so around a 7 hour flight). It would need to cover a range of at least 7,200 miles.

We also know that there is one Voice that remains at large in the Karys universe, who may yet serve a purpose in the upcoming attack (or as a Voice witness to what happened in the Fort Ghartoun).
Top
Re: The destruction of Chava
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Howard T. Map-addict
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1392
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Thanatos,

IfIRecallCorrectly,
Porath's promotion at the start of R2H is from Javelin to Sword.

I agree with you that the short range of the hummers might cause
problems, which are not used in R2H. A hummer arrives in
Portalis exhausted, but it does get there. Harshu's AEF might
now be too far away for hummer communication, but that idea
has not yet been in the book, that I noticed.

Louis,
I see that you might be correct that the Spell to make Porath
kill Neshok, and then himself, might have been weakened too
much to work in Karys. We should all keep alert for evidence
of spell-weakening in Sharonan worlds. Kudos to you, Louis!

Mul Gurthak might notice that Neshok and Porath were both
still alive. He might try to do something about that, or
he might be wary that it might be too dangerous, and lay low.

It is also possible that Weber & Presby forgot about HHNF's
Chapter Seventeen. That was my fear, and I am glad that
spell-weakening is an alternative.

I find it a pity that we get nothing from his Pov in R2H.

But as for 2000 mul Gurthak visiting the Front in person,
presumably some time during the four months before Sharona's
trap closes, well, any such Visit would reduce his deniability,
which is an important part of the Plan. It's not just his Plan,
it is The Council Of Twelve's Plan. He dare not risk that,
even if he wanted to risk himself. (Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!)
He is loyal to The Shakira, not to the Arcanan Union,
and all Arcanans who think otherwise, have been fooled.

Howard T. Map-addict

thanatos wrote:
Louis R wrote:hmmmm...

You've pointed this out before, (Howard),
but I hadn't considered the implications. Either:

a) it was supposed to be a promotion by _mul_Gurthak_ that triggered Porath, and the promotion actually came from some other authority [either a 'time in grade' bump from the Commandery or Harshu did it for some reason] so the spell didn't trigger; or

b) the control spells needed to cause somebody to kill a selected target are subtler and more complex even than the gryphon spells. We have reason to suspect that the latter are breaking down, it would be even more likely that mul Gurthak's spells have failed completely. Which, BTW, suggests that the assassination protocol he was planning to use with Harshu will also fail. OOPS!

In the first case, he's an idiot not to have anticipated this - not, I have to say, unlikely given that it's mul Gurthak. He gets off the hook in the second case since it's a completely unanticipated effect of moving up-chain towards Sharona, but he probably should have considered the possibility that something would happen to Porath and gone with a simpler plan. Like visiting the front and sticking the knife in personally.

quote="Howard T. Map-addict"
Stealth Seeker,

That Commander of 2,000 is Nith mul Gurthak.
His Plans for Harshu and several other top officers
were described in Book Two.

NOTE on 6/20/16: I checked HHNF yesterday.
It is in Chapter 17 (pp 213-222 in the HB edition) that
vos & mul Gurthak describes his plans in a Report to
the Council of Twelve.

In particular, the message
to trigger the killing of 500 Neshok, was to be the
promotion of Javelin Porath to Sword.

Harshu was not yet destroyed at the end of Book Three.
Porath was promoted to Sword early in the book, but he
did *not* murder Neshok, or himself, on receiving that
promotion. They were both still alive near the end of
the book, when Harshu's force was last seen.

But other than that, Arcanan things are unraveling, as you say.

HTM



Upon rereading HHNF, mul Gurthik's assassination protocol is triggered by Porath's promotion from Javelin to Sword. In RTH, Porath is promoted from Shield to Javelin. As such, that protocol has not been activated as of yet. Obviously, mul Gurthik is likely to activate it once he gets Neshok's veiled threat if he does not protect him from the court martial he will face. Yet the one question that remains is whether mul Gurthik's "promotion" of Porath could even reach him given the fact that Harshu's position is now cut off and that he will soon himself under attack. Do the hummers have the sort of range needed to send a message directly from Erthus to Karys? In HG, hummers are said to fly distance of over a thousand miles at speeds of over 150 miles per hour (so around a 7 hour flight). It would need to cover a range of at least 7,200 miles.

We also know that there is one Voice that remains at large in the Karys universe, who may yet serve a purpose in the upcoming attack (or as a Voice witness to what happened in the Fort Ghartoun).
Top

Return to Multiverse