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Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by n7axw   » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:16 pm

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You can pit unicorns, augmented horses and dragons against the Sharonians for a while. But over time, endurance becomes a factor. Plus, eventually the Sharonians develop armored vehicles capable of navigating unimproved terrain.

I wonder if the best strategy for the Sharonians wouldn't be to make the Arcanans come to them. Protect the portals and bridges. As far as possible protect the supply lines by having repair crew ready to re-lay torn up rail. Use the voices to report the location of Arcanans when they turn up. As far as possible avoid penny packets by remaining concentrated.

If the Arcanans retreat to some remote corner of who knows where, let 'em. Battles work out to Sharona's advantage over the long run, but don't let the Arcanans play to their own advantages by luring Sharonian units into chases that leave those units isolated and susceptable to defeat in detail.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by Keith_w   » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:59 am

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n7axw wrote:You can pit unicorns, augmented horses and dragons against the Sharonians for a while. But over time, endurance becomes a factor. Plus, eventually the Sharonians develop armored vehicles capable of navigating unimproved terrain.

I wonder if the best strategy for the Sharonians wouldn't be to make the Arcanans come to them. Protect the portals and bridges. As far as possible protect the supply lines by having repair crew ready to re-lay torn up rail. Use the voices to report the location of Arcanans when they turn up. As far as possible avoid penny packets by remaining concentrated.

If the Arcanans retreat to some remote corner of who knows where, let 'em. Battles work out to Sharona's advantage over the long run, but don't let the Arcanans play to their own advantages by luring Sharonian units into chases that leave those units isolated and susceptable to defeat in detail.

Don

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Once Harshu and the gang are isolated, attrition will become a major consideration for them. Every attack will cost men, equipment, horses, unicorns, and dragons. Most especially every day will use up more and more of the sarkolis which they are unable to refill without returning them to the power grid. Without sarkolis, they will be able to use only their arbelasts, they wont be able to tow any of their levitated devices such as wagons or troop transports and their transport dragons will only be able to carry 50% of their own weight.

Now that Sharona has done an end run around the Arkanan team, they are in deep trouble unless they can pull off an immediate escape through all the portals back to the swamp. Or at least if they allow Sharona to continue to control all the portals between them and Hells Gate.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by n7axw   » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:40 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
n7axw wrote:You can pit unicorns, augmented horses and dragons against the Sharonians for a while. But over time, endurance becomes a factor. Plus, eventually the Sharonians develop armored vehicles capable of navigating unimproved terrain.

I wonder if the best strategy for the Sharonians wouldn't be to make the Arcanans come to them. Protect the portals and bridges. As far as possible protect the supply lines by having repair crew ready to re-lay torn up rail. Use the voices to report the location of Arcanans when they turn up. As far as possible avoid penny packets by remaining concentrated.

If the Arcanans retreat to some remote corner of who knows where, let 'em. Battles work out to Sharona's advantage over the long run, but don't let the Arcanans play to their own advantages by luring Sharonian units into chases that leave those units isolated and susceptable to defeat in detail.

Don

-


Once Harshu and the gang are isolated, attrition will become a major consideration for them. Every attack will cost men, equipment, horses, unicorns, and dragons. Most especially every day will use up more and more of the sarkolis which they are unable to refill without returning them to the power grid. Without sarkolis, they will be able to use only their arbelasts, they wont be able to tow any of their levitated devices such as wagons or troop transports and their transport dragons will only be able to carry 50% of their own weight.

Now that Sharona has done an end run around the Arkanan team, they are in deep trouble unless they can pull off an immediate escape through all the portals back to the swamp. Or at least if they allow Sharona to continue to control all the portals between them and Hells Gate.


Exactly so.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by brnicholas   » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:26 pm

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It seems that we are in agreement that we don't know where the 9th Infantry Division is. I think it is more likely to be coming up the Kelsayr chain while you think it is more likely to be at Fort Salby but we don't know. I also agree that it is odd that the 21st has three brigades.

In this discussion I realized that I did make a mistake in my origional post. The text you referenced at the end of Chapter 41 reads "chan Bykahlar's infantry ought to be on the ground here in Thermyn in the next week and a half, and Brigade-Captain chan Gorsad's only five days behind chan Sharys." I read that as chan Bykahlar when writing my initial post. This error means that on April 15th chan Gorsad's 2nd Brigade of the 21st is not five days from entering Thermyn, they are two or three from joining the 3rd Brigade of the 3rd Dragoons (chan Sharys' command) at the Hell's Gate/Mahritha Portal.

That means Harshu is significantly more screwed then I thought. Because there is no way he can get into Mahritha before the Sharonans have 9000 men defending the Hell's Gate/Mahritha portal. I don't see how he can get much of anything past 9000 men defending an 8 mile front.

It also means 500 Klein is screwed, at least if chan Sharys and chan Gorsad are one quarter as aggressive as chan Gariath. I can't imagine that 500 Klian has the troops to stand off a few companies of Sharonans and they appear to be available to scout in canoes.

I generally agreed with mil-tech bard's analysis but would be very interested in hearing his thoughts on how many men the Sharonans need to close a portal to Harshu.

I can't find any data on the width of the Karys/Failcham portal but they only have 4,500 men there. If it is a 10 mile portal that works out to only 225 men a mile. That seems like too few to keep Harshu from punching a hole and marching his troops through on the ground to me. Please note if he can do that, and if he knows what the reach of Sharonan guns is, he can unload his dragons and fly them through over the Sharonan guns without taking losses to his dragons.

Nicholas

*Edited to correct my math.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:That chan Ersam is QM of a *brigade,*
chan Bykahlar's Third Brigade of chan Jassian's 21st I. D.,
so he doesn't know everything, such as changes to plans.

Since supplying three divisions over 17K miles is indeed hard,
that is reason to send one of those divisions the short way,
through Salby Portal and then Karys.

We are told at the end of Chapter 41 that 3rd/21st is coming
into Thermyn, and that chan Gorsad's 2nd Brigade of the 21st
is five days behind it.

Two Notes here: 1 we were told on page 16 that Ternath Infantry
Divisions have only two brigades, but the 21st seems to have
*three* of them. The other's C/O is Estavan chan Ursan. It
was last seen (chapter 31) deploying to Fort Salby.
2- chan Bykahlar is in the Cast list under "D"
for Desval chan Bykahlar.
Brigade-Captain Shordan chan Khartan, 2nd/3rd Dragoon Div,
is not in the Cast List at all. But several of chan Bykahlar's
staff officers are, though they are not mentioned in that
chapter 33 entry where others of his officers are discussed.

HTM

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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by SYED   » Fri May 06, 2016 1:10 am

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We know their logistics are already strained, can they support a troop movement necessary to resecure their real? Also, do they even have the ability to retreat with their limited transports. They were in a sort of siege, now they are forced to actively campaign against their enemy. The dragons and cavalry and possibly even gryfins were pulled back to better supply them. If they can do a big enough attack on the creatures, they could make retreat impossible, and them unable to deploy their forces, as it unblock a the cut or to retake portals.
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by n7axw   » Fri May 06, 2016 3:20 pm

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SYED wrote:We know their logistics are already strained, can they support a troop movement necessary to resecure their real? Also, do they even have the ability to retreat with their limited transports. They were in a sort of siege, now they are forced to actively campaign against their enemy. The dragons and cavalry and possibly even gryfins were pulled back to better supply them. If they can do a big enough attack on the creatures, they could make retreat impossible, and them unable to deploy their forces, as it unblock a the cut or to retake portals.


My guess is tht we are loooking at an eventual surrender, either prior to battle or after, esp. if Arcanans can't break through portals.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by brnicholas   » Fri May 06, 2016 4:59 pm

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n7axw wrote:
SYED wrote:We know their logistics are already strained, can they support a troop movement necessary to resecure their real? Also, do they even have the ability to retreat with their limited transports. They were in a sort of siege, now they are forced to actively campaign against their enemy. The dragons and cavalry and possibly even gryfins were pulled back to better supply them. If they can do a big enough attack on the creatures, they could make retreat impossible, and them unable to deploy their forces, as it unblock a the cut or to retake portals.


My guess is tht we are loooking at an eventual surrender, either prior to battle or after, esp. if Arcanans can't break through portals.

Don

-


Harshu and his men are stuck behind enemy lines and have no realistic hope of rescue. They will try to break out, taking what they can and abandoning the rest because they have no other options. How many men they can try and get out and how much combat power they have is up to the authors but I am confident it is a lot less then they had when they launched their attack.

As for surrender I don't see it until they have been completely broken and all hope of escape is gone. The Arcanan rank and file believes the Sharonans have shot civilian prisoners out of hand in the past. They also know how they have treated Sharonan prisoners and are likely to fear payback. Fighting on until there is no hope of escape seems necessity for them given the reprisals that they will likely face if they surrender.

Nicholas
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Wed May 11, 2016 2:24 pm

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The Sharonans might bypass Klian and Fort Rycharn,
not even knowing they exist.
Their "long-distance searchers" are Portal Hounds,
who will point the way to Fort Wyvern (north, in Cuba),
but won't have a clue that another Arcanan base is on
the point-of-the-bulge at Belem, Brazil (to the west).
Even if they get a clue from dragons approching from
the west, the Sharonans might consider that a false lead,
an attempt to lead them away from the next Portal.

For all we know, the Arcanans have more bases in Gharys,
perhaps in West Africa, and would be happy to lead the
Sharonans away from the Wyvern Portal. The Sharonans can
also guess that, so would logically head towards the Portal,
and ignore any possible bases that are too far away for
a Distance Viewer to see.
Sharona lacks Air Searchers.

HTM

brnicholas wrote:
{snip - htm}
It also means 500 Klian is screwed, at least if chan Sharys
and chan Gorsad are one quarter as aggressive as chan Geriath.
I can't imagine that 500 Klian has the troops to stand
off a few companies of Sharonans and they appear to be
available to scout in canoes.

{snip - htm}

Nicholas

*Edited to correct my math.

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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by brnicholas   » Fri May 13, 2016 1:28 pm

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You are right they might.

I expect you are right about the Sharonans heading toward the protal and ignoring everything else. I expect they will take what they believe to be the quickest and easiest (which is not necessarily the shortest) way. I had heard so much about how hard it would be for the Sharonans to put a railroad through the swamp that I assumed that they would find following the river and then going up the coast quicker and easier then going overland.

That evaluation depends on several factors however:
1)Terrain between the portal and the coast.
2)Their evaluation of Arcanan ability to interfere with their movement by land and water.
3)How much knowledge they have of what is in Mahritha, especially do the Sharonans know that there is a water gap whichever way they go?

Since we don't have answers to any of these questions on reflection I can't guess which way Sharona will go. If they go straight north Klian is fine. If they go down the river he is screwed.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:The Sharonans might bypass Klian and Fort Rycharn,
not even knowing they exist.
Their "long-distance searchers" are Portal Hounds,
who will point the way to Fort Wyvern (north, in Cuba),
but won't have a clue that another Arcanan base is on
the point-of-the-bulge at Belem, Brazil (to the west).
Even if they get a clue from dragons approching from
the west, the Sharonans might consider that a false lead,
an attempt to lead them away from the next Portal.

For all we know, the Arcanans have more bases in Gharys,
perhaps in West Africa, and would be happy to lead the
Sharonans away from the Wyvern Portal. The Sharonans can
also guess that, so would logically head towards the Portal,
and ignore any possible bases that are too far away for
a Distance Viewer to see.
Sharona lacks Air Searchers.

HTM

brnicholas wrote:
{snip - htm}
It also means 500 Klian is screwed, at least if chan Sharys
and chan Gorsad are one quarter as aggressive as chan Geriath.
I can't imagine that 500 Klian has the troops to stand
off a few companies of Sharonans and they appear to be
available to scout in canoes.

{snip - htm}

Nicholas

*Edited to correct my math.

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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by Louis R   » Fri May 13, 2016 6:45 pm

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All of this assumes that they don't learn of Ft Rycharn's existence from prisoner interrogation. They probably will, and start looking for it.

brnicholas wrote:You are right they might.

I expect you are right about the Sharonans heading toward the protal and ignoring everything else. I expect they will take what they believe to be the quickest and easiest (which is not necessarily the shortest) way. I had heard so much about how hard it would be for the Sharonans to put a railroad through the swamp that I assumed that they would find following the river and then going up the coast quicker and easier then going overland.

That evaluation depends on several factors however:
1)Terrain between the portal and the coast.
2)Their evaluation of Arcanan ability to interfere with their movement by land and water.
3)How much knowledge they have of what is in Mahritha, especially do the Sharonans know that there is a water gap whichever way they go?

Since we don't have answers to any of these questions on reflection I can't guess which way Sharona will go. If they go straight north Klian is fine. If they go down the river he is screwed.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:The Sharonans might bypass Klian and Fort Rycharn,
not even knowing they exist.
Their "long-distance searchers" are Portal Hounds,
who will point the way to Fort Wyvern (north, in Cuba),
but won't have a clue that another Arcanan base is on
the point-of-the-bulge at Belem, Brazil (to the west).
Even if they get a clue from dragons approching from
the west, the Sharonans might consider that a false lead,
an attempt to lead them away from the next Portal.

For all we know, the Arcanans have more bases in Gharys,
perhaps in West Africa, and would be happy to lead the
Sharonans away from the Wyvern Portal. The Sharonans can
also guess that, so would logically head towards the Portal,
and ignore any possible bases that are too far away for
a Distance Viewer to see.
Sharona lacks Air Searchers.

HTM

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