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Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by Thierfielder   » Sun May 15, 2016 8:13 pm

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I may have found a continuity error regarding the front situation. I just finished the book and realized that Honshu's chapter is just completely at odds with the previous one. I'll explain.

On April 6, the 12nd Dragoons' leading elements take Fort Ghartoun, at the Thermyn - New Uromath Portal. The moment news reach the HQ, chan Geraith orders it to advance towards Hell's Gate, along with the 23rd, leaving another Regiment (the 9th) to cover Fort Ghartoun to "stop the dragon traffic dead".

At the same time, he orders chan Sharys' 3rd Brigade to move towards the Thermyn - Failcham Portal and take Fort Brithik. The First Brigade is supposed to keep an eye on Hell's Gate once the 12 have taken it, and the rest of the corps is supposed to follow towards the swamp Portal (HG - Mahritha) in the wake of the 12nd, in order to take it, nail it down and then turn towards the 3rd to reinforce it in Fort Brithik.

Then, on April 9 the 3rd encounters some dragons along the way, but still in Thermyn, killing one battle dragon during the skirmish and arriving to the portal the following day, April 10. We later find out they just annihilated the Arcanan garrison.

However, in the next chapter (April 14), Honshu states that the Sharonans have taken all the Portals between them and Mahritha, which would imply the Sharonans just made somehow the 1430 miles in Failcham in those 3 days, something plainly impossible considering the speed they have achieved so far. Either I'm completely mistaken, or Harshu is, and he should still be in control of both Karys and Failsham. Perhaps there has been some miscommunication between both authors?
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by Louis R   » Mon May 16, 2016 1:44 pm

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The units ordered to Hell's Gate were not at Ghartoun, which is on the Thermyn-Failcham portal; they were already on the Thermyn-New Uromath portal. IOW, chan Geraith started his main attack with a 1200-mile separation between his main forces. They had to capture 3 portals, but only had to cover ~400mi to do it.

Thierfielder wrote:I may have found a continuity error regarding the front situation. I just finished the book and realized that Honshu's chapter is just completely at odds with the previous one. I'll explain.

On April 6, the 12nd Dragoons' leading elements take Fort Ghartoun, at the Thermyn - New Uromath Portal. The moment news reach the HQ, chan Geraith orders it to advance towards Hell's Gate, along with the 23rd, leaving another Regiment (the 9th) to cover Fort Ghartoun to "stop the dragon traffic dead".

At the same time, he orders chan Sharys' 3rd Brigade to move towards the Thermyn - Failcham Portal and take Fort Brithik. The First Brigade is supposed to keep an eye on Hell's Gate once the 12 have taken it, and the rest of the corps is supposed to follow towards the swamp Portal (HG - Mahritha) in the wake of the 12nd, in order to take it, nail it down and then turn towards the 3rd to reinforce it in Fort Brithik.

Then, on April 9 the 3rd encounters some dragons along the way, but still in Thermyn, killing one battle dragon during the skirmish and arriving to the portal the following day, April 10. We later find out they just annihilated the Arcanan garrison.

However, in the next chapter (April 14), Honshu states that the Sharonans have taken all the Portals between them and Mahritha, which would imply the Sharonans just made somehow the 1430 miles in Failcham in those 3 days, something plainly impossible considering the speed they have achieved so far. Either I'm completely mistaken, or Harshu is, and he should still be in control of both Karys and Failsham. Perhaps there has been some miscommunication between both authors?
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by brnicholas   » Mon May 16, 2016 8:13 pm

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Good Point!

Nicholas

Louis R wrote:All of this assumes that they don't learn of Ft Rycharn's existence from prisoner interrogation. They probably will, and start looking for it.

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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by brnicholas   » Mon May 16, 2016 8:19 pm

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I think you have the portals and Forts confused. I don't have time to check everything now but my understanding is that on April 6th the 3rd Dragoons take Fort Ghartoun on the Thermyn-Failcham portal and immediatly begin their advance into Failcham. At the same time chan Sharys' 3rd Brigade resumes his advance toward the Thermyn-New Uromath portal (he is only a couple hundred miles at most from it at this point).

On April 9th the 3rd Dragoons encounters some dragons in Failcham. Less then 300 miles from the Failcham-Karys portal.

On April 10th the Sharonans took the Failcham-Karys portal. On April 14th Harshu received word that they had also seized the Thermyn-New Uromath, New Uromath-Hell's Gate and Hell's Gate-Maratha portals.

That is how I read it.

Nicholas

Thierfielder wrote:I may have found a continuity error regarding the front situation. I just finished the book and realized that Honshu's chapter is just completely at odds with the previous one. I'll explain.

On April 6, the 12nd Dragoons' leading elements take Fort Ghartoun, at the Thermyn - New Uromath Portal. The moment news reach the HQ, chan Geraith orders it to advance towards Hell's Gate, along with the 23rd, leaving another Regiment (the 9th) to cover Fort Ghartoun to "stop the dragon traffic dead".

At the same time, he orders chan Sharys' 3rd Brigade to move towards the Thermyn - Failcham Portal and take Fort Brithik. The First Brigade is supposed to keep an eye on Hell's Gate once the 12 have taken it, and the rest of the corps is supposed to follow towards the swamp Portal (HG - Mahritha) in the wake of the 12nd, in order to take it, nail it down and then turn towards the 3rd to reinforce it in Fort Brithik.

Then, on April 9 the 3rd encounters some dragons along the way, but still in Thermyn, killing one battle dragon during the skirmish and arriving to the portal the following day, April 10. We later find out they just annihilated the Arcanan garrison.

However, in the next chapter (April 14), Honshu states that the Sharonans have taken all the Portals between them and Mahritha, which would imply the Sharonans just made somehow the 1430 miles in Failcham in those 3 days, something plainly impossible considering the speed they have achieved so far. Either I'm completely mistaken, or Harshu is, and he should still be in control of both Karys and Failsham. Perhaps there has been some miscommunication between both authors?
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by jeremyr   » Tue May 17, 2016 9:30 am

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I agree.

Harshu would do better to set up in Karys,
than to try to get into Traisum,
because his magic is weaker in Traisum.

In Failcham Harshu's forces would be in south Tunisia,
needing to cross the Sahara to get to Thermyn.
Not nearly so good.

HTM


If and it's a big if, Harshu could get back to the Hells Gate world, he could then go thru another portal. Possibly the same portal to the jungle where our previous groups have gone into hiding. That could lead to some interesting story lines if Harshu gets to interview the Arcanan diplomat held prisoner.
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by Thierfielder   » Tue May 17, 2016 10:05 am

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You are both right, but I'm not wrong. I went back and reread very carefully the last chapters of the book and I think I solved the mystery. It is true that I got the locations of Fort Ghartoun and Fort Brithik wrong, but so does the book. :o

In chapter 41 there are a lot of references to the deployment implying that the 12nd Dragoons are moving towards the New Uromath portal, and not towards Failcham, while at the same time Ghartoun is mentioned as their objective. Then, when the attack is about to proceed

Chapter 41 wrote:The battalion-captain looked down at the large-scale, detailed, and painstakingly accurate map of Fort Ghartoun on the flat rock before him, its corners weighted down by handy stones.

The fort lay in the White Snake Valley, the depression running roughly northeast to southwest along the serpentine course of the White Snake River. The portal to New Uromath cut diagonally across the valley on a northwest to southeast line little more than a mile south of the fort. Like the much larger Tyrahl River, the White Snake flowed into the portal and disappeared, but Fort Ghartoun was three miles from the stream’s nearest approach.


It could be a typo, except that a bit later, when the attack begins:

Chapter 41 wrote:The screams, the chaos, and the blood raging across the fort’s parade ground in bubbles of Shartahk’s own hellfire was total. The garrison was already disintegrating, at least a dozen men flinging themselves through the open gate, running madly away from the inferno towards the beckoning safety of the portal to New Uromath.


Furthermore, when news reach the HQ, chan Geraith starts ordering around...

Chapter 41 wrote:“Renyl, your boys’ve had the lead all the way from Fort Salby. I don’t see any reason they shouldn’t keep it now. I want you on the way to Hell’s Gate within the next six hours.”


Renyl is Renyl chan Quay, CO of the First Brigade, whose forces have just smashed through "Ghartoun" (which actually should've been Brithik) and he is ordered to advance towarsd Hell's Gate. If I'm mistaken, that would imply marching directly opposite from where half of his forces are already deployed.

At the same time, the Third Birgade is ordered towards the Failcham Portal (remember he was staying in Coyote Canyon, in Thermyn).

Chapter 41 wrote:“I know you will,” chan Geraith said, and glanced back at chan Korthal. “As for you, Lisar, pass the word to Brigade-Captain chan Sharys. I want him heading for the Failcham portal just as fast as he can move, starting fifteen minutes ago".

[...]

It’s twelve hundred miles from Ghartoun to Brithik, but Third Brigade’s only got eight hundred and fifty miles to go from Coyote Canyon.


And in the next chapter they have their dragon encounter... still in Thermyn.

Chapter 42 wrote:Which didn’t make the three-day flight from Traisum all the way back to Hell’s Gate any less boring. For that matter, why couldn’t he and Sky Sabre stop here in Thermyn, spend three or four days hunting, and then pick up a fresh transport flight on its way back to the front? It wasn’t as if—


And, as the skirmish unfold, we see yet again the Forts location messed up:

Chapter 42 wrote:“No, you idiot!” Yoril Jerstan shouted, even though there was no way in the world Hostyra could have heard him. He groped for his flare projector, triggering off the yellow-yellow-green sequence that ordered Hostyra to break off, but the young twenty-five paid no attention. His dragon’s dive angle only steepened, increasing his airspeed, and Jerstan swore again.
He fired the break off sequence a second time, and banked Grayscale hard to the right, away from the oncoming Sharonians. The other transports followed him promptly, but Hostyra’s wingman hesitated. He held on in Sky Sabre’s wake for a handful of seconds before he slowly, grudgingly brought his own dragon around to follow the transports back towards Fort Brithik.

[...]

Most of the Arcanan dragons had broken off, and chan Werkan’s jaw tightened as they headed back towards the Failcham portal through which they must have come.


Interestingly enough, that only happens in that chapter. When a bit earlier the escapees and mutineers plot their run, they actually have to traverse both Thermyn and New Uromath to reach Hell's Gate. So I guess at some point during the writing process both Forts got switched, and the mistake wasn't detected before publishing either.

It's not that big an issue, since both Brithik and Ghartoun have now been retaken, but it seems to me that considering this, the advance must necessarily have stopped at Ghartoun, in the Thermyn - Failcham portal. Of course, I could still be wrong, and I'd appreciate if someone could confirm whether that's the case.
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by StealthSeeker   » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:52 pm

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I am in awe of the detail many of you are able to keep track of in this story. I, on the other hand, get so confused that I simply start taking things into generalities.

For instance, the end-around attack by the Sharonan forces I just take as one that goes down the alternate/longer chain and pops out in the middle of the chain that the Arcanan forces have just travelled/fought up. So at the point where the Sharonan forces jump into the Arcanan line you need a strong defensive force to hold that point. Then your attacking forces take off travelling each way down the Arcanan line. This traps the advance force and prevents any reinforcement in strength from the Arcanan home worlds. Other than the fact that they had to take each portal with out letting a message get out to warn Harshu of what was happening, it fairly straight forward.

Beyond that, I drown in the detail. Though I enjoy the telling of how it is done.

There is one critical detail that I have in my mind, but as I get my book from the library, I don't have it at hand to review immediately. That detail is that the Sharonan forces have moved in place, at the fort where the Arcanan forces were stopped, some very large "guns" of which they have not yet fired. It was my understanding when I read the book that the Arcanan encampment is well within range of these guns. It's just that the Sharonan forces have not used them as they wanted the Arcanan forces to remain sitting just exactly where they were while the end-around movement was taking place.

If this is correct, then the first thing I'm going to do, upon acknowledgement that a blocking force is in place at the other portal, is to open up with these big guns to obliterate the most effective tool the Arcanan's have, their mobility. There would be damn few dragons left to take flight to haul anything anywhere!

Depending on the number and full range of those guns, and their rate of fire, there may be very little left of much anything that survives getting beyond those guns. Anything that isn't severely dug in, and there is no evidence that the Arcanan's have done any such "digging", is in danger of destruction.

How much of Harshu's encampment get the chance to surrender before it gets wiped out?
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I think therefore I am.... I think
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by Astelon   » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:08 pm

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We don't know that the arcanans camped close enough to the portal to allow for an artillery attack against their main camp. I would assune that there are some forces you could hit, but whether you can do significant damage to the AEF's dragons is another matter.
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by StealthSeeker   » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:15 pm

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Astelon wrote:We don't know that the arcanans camped close enough to the portal to allow for an artillery attack against their main camp. I would assune that there are some forces you could hit, but whether you can do significant damage to the AEF's dragons is another matter.



I was fairly sure that I remembered a conversation about a gifted person with far sight that was with in viewing range of the Arcanan camp and that in that conversation it was mentioned that the big guns did have the range to hit the camp. Maybe they were talking about guns that could be brought forward, but I thought it was about guns that were already in place.
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Re: Situation at the Front (SPOILERS FOR RTH)
Post by Astelon   » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:11 am

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I don't recall that conversation, but their is the one in chapter two of Road to Hell, where the sharonian officers discuss the arcanan drahons, and what distance viewers see if them. In that conversation there was a reference to pushing the arcanans further back among the approach once the big guns arrived.
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