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Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:48 am

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Gadriel recognized something very important at the firing range. Not only do the Sharonans manage a complex society without magic but their way of understanding the world lets them better understand the worlds' basic physics. Arcana's way of viewing the world in terms of how to generate certain effects through magic means there is no universal set of physical laws in their understanding. Everything is understood in a specific context.

That means an educated Sharonans knowledge of physics will provide a better framework for researching spells than the most Gifted Shakira. Sure Arcanans know that there are natural forces to overcome when casting spells. What they don't understand is how those forces relate to each other. All the they know is when magic is applied in specific circumstances a specific result happens. Yes, they see the results of gravity and the effects of momentum and many other observable phenomena. They do not understand chemistry and I suspect metallurgy and many other material sciences that do not involve using aether. Even here I suspect Arcanans do not apply aether to change the makeup of metals into alloys. They would rely on aether itself to generate the necessary effect.

Thoughts?
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by brnicholas   » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:56 am

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PeterZ wrote:Gadriel recognized something very important at the firing range. Not only do the Sharonans manage a complex society without magic but their way of understanding the world lets them better understand the worlds' basic physics. Arcana's way of viewing the world in terms of how to generate certain effects through magic means there is no universal set of physical laws in their understanding. Everything is understood in a specific context.

That means an educated Sharonans knowledge of physics will provide a better framework for researching spells than the most Gifted Shakira. Sure Arcanans know that there are natural forces to overcome when casting spells. What they don't understand is how those forces relate to each other. All the they know is when magic is applied in specific circumstances a specific result happens. Yes, they see the results of gravity and the effects of momentum and many other observable phenomena. They do not understand chemistry and I suspect metallurgy and many other material sciences that do not involve using aether. Even here I suspect Arcanans do not apply aether to change the makeup of metals into alloys. They would rely on aether itself to generate the necessary effect.

Thoughts?


I have seen a number of discussions of this but haven't been able to read RTH yet. Still based on what has been said I wonder if things are being interpreted right. Is it possible that the multiverse as a whole doesn't have baseline physics? In the multiverse could mind be primary? As examples of what this would mean.

Magic works on Arcana because the Arcanans believe in it.
Talent works on Sharona because the Sharonans believe in it.
A gun does not work reliably on Arcana because the Arcanans don't believe in it.
Sharonans can live eating Arcanan food because everyone believes they can.

Can the RTH text be read as implying that mind is primary in the multiverse and matter does what the minds expect?

In other words, is it possible that on Arcana and Sharona the question is not "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?" it is "if a tree falls in the forest and no mind is aware of it is there a tree?"

Nicholas
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:16 pm

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Nicholas,

Anything is possible in fiction, but some things tend to destroy the suspension of disbelief more quickly than others. The problem with a purely relative physics you describe is that nothing is real and absolute. If enough people disbelieve an individual can't exist, that person doesn't exist. Its that simple. Problems are simply wished away if enough people want them to disappear. That's from a purely literary perspective.

Let's consider it from a physical perspective. Where do all those universes come from if there are no minds to give them life? The portals open to virgin universes that have existed for as long as either Sharona or Arcana. If minds are required, then that would not be possible.

Text has suggested that aether, an extradimensional substance/essence, is introduced into the universe to create forces that have a physical effect on the universe. Gadriel's comments suggest that certain baseline effects of physics are recognized but are overcome with magic. The question is whether those baseline physics are identical throughout multiverse, not whether or not there are bassline physics.
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:06 pm

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Then there is the question whether the Aether Theory
is a correct description of the multiverse.

We had a Luminous Ether Theory, but it was disproven.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:Nicholas,

Anything is possible in fiction, but some things tend to destroy the suspension of disbelief more quickly than others. The problem with a purely relative physics you describe is that nothing is real and absolute. If enough people disbelieve an individual can't exist, that person doesn't exist. Its that simple. Problems are simply wished away if enough people want them to disappear. That's from a purely literary perspective.

Let's consider it from a physical perspective. Where do all those universes come from if there are no minds to give them life? The portals open to virgin universes that have existed for as long as either Sharona or Arcana. If minds are required, then that would not be possible.

Text has suggested that aether, an extradimensional substance/essence, is introduced into the universe to create forces that have a physical effect on the universe. Gadriel's comments suggest that certain baseline effects of physics are recognized but are overcome with magic. The question is whether those baseline physics are identical throughout multiverse, not whether or not there are bassline physics.
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by n7axw   » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:45 pm

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Then there is the question whether the Aether Theory
is a correct description of the multiverse.

We had a Luminous Ether Theory, but it was disproven.

HTM


Yeah, I know... had to study that back in high school and it put me to sleep... :lol:

More seriously, I'm still struggling with this. The gun on Arcana doesn't work because there is trouble with Jasek not believing... It must mean that Arcana I can chant the proper spell, click my heels and float to the moon... Nothing about any of this seems consistent...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:13 pm

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The key to the gun's firing lies in the difference between Jasek, Gadriel and Jathmar. They all believe the gun would fire. They all fired the rifle before in other universes so belief doesn't play into it. There are two things in play; knowing how the baseline physics work and knowing how Arcanan physics work. Once Gadriel understands and can translate how the rifle fires into her universe's physics when she shoots, the rifle fires perfectly for her. Jathmar's understanding of baseline physics emphasized that base physical process sufficiently to prevent most of the aether from interfering with the process for a weak combustion. Jasek did neither and couldn't fire at all.

It was Gadriel's Gifted understanding of the combustion process that aligned the aether to prevent any interference at all. She didn't have to create a spell. She simply had to prevent aether from randomly interfering with the chemical process. So I suppose belief has some influence in this, just not a positive influence. Belief can prevent aether from interfering with natural physics but not actively shape it in spells. That requires the Gift.
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by n7axw   » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:37 am

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PeterZ wrote:The key to the gun's firing lies in the difference between Jasek, Gadriel and Jathmar. They all believe the gun would fire. They all fired the rifle before in other universes so belief doesn't play into it. There are two things in play; knowing how the baseline physics work and knowing how Arcanan physics work. Once Gadriel understands and can translate how the rifle fires into her universe's physics when she shoots, the rifle fires perfectly for her. Jathmar's understanding of baseline physics emphasized that base physical process sufficiently to prevent most of the aether from interfering with the process for a weak combustion. Jasek did neither and couldn't fire at all.

It was Gadriel's Gifted understanding of the combustion process that aligned the aether to prevent any interference at all. She didn't have to create a spell. She simply had to prevent aether from randomly interfering with the chemical process. So I suppose belief has some influence in this, just not a positive influence. Belief can prevent aether from interfering with natural physics but not actively shape it in spells. That requires the Gift.


Under this scheme of things, do you think that aether exists on Sharona?

Don

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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:57 am

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n7axw wrote:
PeterZ wrote:The key to the gun's firing lies in the difference between Jasek, Gadriel and Jathmar. They all believe the gun would fire. They all fired the rifle before in other universes so belief doesn't play into it. There are two things in play; knowing how the baseline physics work and knowing how Arcanan physics work. Once Gadriel understands and can translate how the rifle fires into her universe's physics when she shoots, the rifle fires perfectly for her. Jathmar's understanding of baseline physics emphasized that base physical process sufficiently to prevent most of the aether from interfering with the process for a weak combustion. Jasek did neither and couldn't fire at all.

It was Gadriel's Gifted understanding of the combustion process that aligned the aether to prevent any interference at all. She didn't have to create a spell. She simply had to prevent aether from randomly interfering with the chemical process. So I suppose belief has some influence in this, just not a positive influence. Belief can prevent aether from interfering with natural physics but not actively shape it in spells. That requires the Gift.


Under this scheme of things, do you think that aether exists on Sharona?

Don

-


Gadriel describes aether as extradimensional in origin and text suggests that physical conditions in the world can facilitate its generation in the physical world. Water moving against rock has been mentioned twice as a source of magic. Once in a description of Garth Showma's (Niagra) Falls and one by the drake breeder on his trip home to Mythal about the ocean beating on the coast.

I suspect that magic can be generated in any of the multiverse worlds. The difference in magic's efficacy depends on the threshold set to overcoming the baseline physics. In pristine universes there is a base resistance. This can be strengthened as people's minds expect that baseline to be unalterable as whatever aether exists is shaped NOT to interfere by the minds present. It can also be reduced as minds shape aether TO interfere in various ways.

Using the KISS principle then, I believe that aether is the physical world manifestation of whatever makes Talents work. Talents allow the mind to connect beyond the physical dimensions and the Gift allows for the alteration of the physical world using the same ....source/essence/force.
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:39 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Nicholas,

Anything is possible in fiction, but some things tend to destroy the suspension of disbelief more quickly than others. The problem with a purely relative physics you describe is that nothing is real and absolute. If enough people disbelieve an individual can't exist, that person doesn't exist. Its that simple. Problems are simply wished away if enough people want them to disappear. That's from a purely literary perspective.

Let's consider it from a physical perspective. Where do all those universes come from if there are no minds to give them life? The portals open to virgin universes that have existed for as long as either Sharona or Arcana. If minds are required, then that would not be possible.

Text has suggested that aether, an extradimensional substance/essence, is introduced into the universe to create forces that have a physical effect on the universe. Gadriel's comments suggest that certain baseline effects of physics are recognized but are overcome with magic. The question is whether those baseline physics are identical throughout multiverse, not whether or not there are bassline physics.


I did not say anything about wishing things away. I did not intend to say that if enough people want something not to occur it doesn't. For example, wishing my grandfather hadn't died, isn't going to bring him back to life. Nor did I mean that believing something you think might happen will make it happen. For example, believing the Cubs will win the world series next year, does not make it more likely. I didn't even mean that believing something is very likely to be true, for example believing in God, does not make him real.

What I meant was that matter will conform to what people know with certainty from prolonged experience and the testimony of trusted authority will happen. An example would be believing that a rock I drop will fall.

In this view the material world is like language. It is a collective product of the community and conforms to what the community makes of it. But it changes slower then language does because it is far easier to change how one uses a word then it is to change the basic assumptions about cause and effect learned in infancy. Normally it would change only in generational time scales although the encounter of radically different cultures could do it faster, as we are seeing now in the encounter of Sharona and Arcana.

As for your question about all those empty universes, no one has given a credible explanation for them. The only one we have is the Sharonan one involving the universe multiplying when events could occur in two different ways. The problem with that is that it leaves it incomprehensible why all the universes are geologically and ecologically identical? For that to happen every universe Sharona and Arcana has discovered must have split after the end of the last ice age (or they would be ecologically more diverse) and yet have lost their human population to a completely unknown cause. I find it much easier to say I don't have a clue where the gates came from but the universes are identical to what the explores knew because the explorers thoughts defined what they would be in the absence of other minds.

As for your comments about aether, it is possible, but if it is a form of handwavium, by which mind alters matter why not just follow Occam's Razor and accept that mind is manipulating matter directly? As for their being "baseline physics" there is clearly a basic commonality between Sharonan and Arcanan minds I would therefor expect a basic commonality between how they shape matter.

Nicholas
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:52 pm

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PeterZ wrote:The key to the gun's firing lies in the difference between Jasek, Gadriel and Jathmar. They all believe the gun would fire. They all fired the rifle before in other universes so belief doesn't play into it. There are two things in play; knowing how the baseline physics work and knowing how Arcanan physics work. Once Gadriel understands and can translate how the rifle fires into her universe's physics when she shoots, the rifle fires perfectly for her. Jathmar's understanding of baseline physics emphasized that base physical process sufficiently to prevent most of the aether from interfering with the process for a weak combustion. Jasek did neither and couldn't fire at all.

It was Gadriel's Gifted understanding of the combustion process that aligned the aether to prevent any interference at all. She didn't have to create a spell. She simply had to prevent aether from randomly interfering with the chemical process. So I suppose belief has some influence in this, just not a positive influence. Belief can prevent aether from interfering with natural physics but not actively shape it in spells. That requires the Gift.


This is a coherent theory that explains the evidence of the gun on New Arcana well but I think it creates for more problems then it solves.

It presumes that the aether is interfering with some aspect of the guns mechanical functioning as default but that raises all kinds of questions.

First, why is the aether only affecting the gun on New Arcana? Spells are working almost perfectly on the frontier so aether must be present there in almost the same quantities as on New Arcana. So why isn't the aether interfering with the function of Sharonan guns at the front?

Second, why is the aether only affecting the gun and not other things on New Arcana? We have seen the Arcanans using fire so aether obviously doesn't normally interfere with combustion. If it would interfering with another physical process I would expect Shylar and Jathmar to have noticed. They have noticed specific applications (the dragons) but nothing in general.

Third, what is the link between the gun not working and the interference with talents? Unless the two phenomenon are completely unrelated, which seems unlikely, there must be one but this theory doesn't seem to explain it.

As regards Jasek, Gadrial and Jathmar's belief, they are not the same. For Jasek and Gadriel who grew up never imagining that the effect the gun produces could be produced without magic the gun remains fundamentally unnatural. They know from experience it should work but they still feel that it should not because they grew up believing that it was impossible to generate effects like that without magic. For Jathmar, who grew up around guns, the gun is perfectly natural and every normal person expects a gun to work. Those are very different forms of belief which have very different effects in how matter reacts.

Based on what I have seen copied and pasted here what Gadrial appears to have done is to redescribe the gun as a magical device and thus generate the union between her belief the gun would work and how everyone else in the universe "knows" things work to make the gun work properly.

Nicholas
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