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Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by n7axw   » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:25 pm

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jeremyr wrote:I will look for it tomorrow. But on a kindle will take some time. I've read the book twice already and had the impression it didn't fire perfectly.


I think the wording of the textev implies that the last time Gadrial fired the rifle, it worked properly.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:56 am

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Unless Gadriel hit the target, it would be hard to quantify what the bullet did. Given her novice status in firing those guns, hitting the target was a chancy thing. I suspect sound was the measure of success for the chemical process that released the energy to propel the bullet. Just as Jathmar described to Gadriel.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:::a Naughty Moose responds::
I did reread that section.
All that I found was, the second time,
the gun made the "CCRRAAAAKK" noise perfectly.
I did not see a mention of what the bullet did.

Naughty Moose

PeterZ wrote:Reread that section. She fired twice. The first time she got a weak discharge. The second time after Jathmar reiterated the process, it fired perfectly.
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:52 am

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But what did Gadriel realize and why did it terrify her "out of her seriously intelligent wits?"

I think the clue is in her description of the way a rifle functions. What she said is that gunpowder is "the incarnation of motive energies" that is energy of motion made into a physical object.

This "latent arcane energy" is moved from "the etheric plane to the physical" via a process of "distillation." Note here that she calls momentum "latent arcane energy" which should tell us that the energy used to cast spells is that same energy as makes ordinary objects move. Also note that she says this energy is moved from the "etheric plane" presumably where magical energy is stored. This is important because it establishes that the energy which propels the bullet, or even a rock dropped off a cliff, is the same type of energy as makes a spell work.

She concludes by saying the firing pin triggers a complex spell which releases the energy stored in the gunpowder.

This is "mind boggling" for her because it breaches several principles of Arcanan Physics. Those that jump out at me as probable include (although I don't have direct text evidence for them), only Sarkolis can be used to store magical energy, only living things can pull energy from the Etheric plane to the physical, and matter lacks inherent properties.

I suspect she tested it by saying an activation spell as she pulled the trigger, theorizing that the gun didn't work because the firing pin wasn't an arcane triggering mechanism on New Arcana.

When it worked she was terrified because it reveled that Sharonans believe all matter has an intrinsic connection to energy and if that becomes true on Arcana much of the magic that runs Arcanan society will cease to function.

Nicholas
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:40 am

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One quibble that has major connotations. I don't believe she uttered an incantation. It wasn't necessary. If it was, Jathmar couldn't fire the gun. What she did was define the process and used her Gift to prevent aether from interfering with that defined process/spell inherent in the firing sequence.

What she feared is that magisters and magistrons would not be necessary. Recall that her fear is described as only a possibility even if this belief was widespread in Arcana.

It makes more sense to me to consider aether existing in the environment as interfering with much of the normal physical reactions. Since it reacts to mental activity, it follows that mental activity can inhibit that interference.

Otherwise, I think you are dead on.

brnicholas wrote:But what did Gadriel realize and why did it terrify her "out of her seriously intelligent wits?"

I think the clue is in her description of the way a rifle functions. What she said is that gunpowder is "the incarnation of motive energies" that is energy of motion made into a physical object.

This "latent arcane energy" is moved from "the etheric plane to the physical" via a process of "distillation." Note here that she calls momentum "latent arcane energy" which should tell us that the energy used to cast spells is that same energy as makes ordinary objects move. Also note that she says this energy is moved from the "etheric plane" presumably where magical energy is stored. This is important because it establishes that the energy which propels the bullet, or even a rock dropped off a cliff, is the same type of energy as makes a spell work.

She concludes by saying the firing pin triggers a complex spell which releases the energy stored in the gunpowder.

This is "mind boggling" for her because it breaches several principles of Arcanan Physics. Those that jump out at me as probable include (although I don't have direct text evidence for them), only Sarkolis can be used to store magical energy, only living things can pull energy from the Etheric plane to the physical, and matter lacks inherent properties.

I suspect she tested it by saying an activation spell as she pulled the trigger, theorizing that the gun didn't work because the firing pin wasn't an arcane triggering mechanism on New Arcana.

When it worked she was terrified because it reveled that Sharonans believe all matter has an intrinsic connection to energy and if that becomes true on Arcana much of the magic that runs Arcanan society will cease to function.

Nicholas
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by n7axw   » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:48 pm

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PeterZ wrote:One quibble that has major connotations. I don't believe she uttered an incantation. It wasn't necessary. If it was, Jathmar couldn't fire the gun. What she did was define the process and used her Gift to prevent aether from interfering with that defined process/spell inherent in the firing sequence.

What she feared is that magisters and magistrons would not be necessary. Recall that her fear is described as only a possibility even if this belief was widespread in Arcana.

It makes more sense to me to consider aether existing in the environment as interfering with much of the normal physical reactions. Since it reacts to mental activity, it follows that mental activity can inhibit that interference.

Otherwise, I think you are dead on.

brnicholas wrote:But what did Gadriel realize and why did it terrify her "out of her seriously intelligent wits?"

I think the clue is in her description of the way a rifle functions. What she said is that gunpowder is "the incarnation of motive energies" that is energy of motion made into a physical object.

This "latent arcane energy" is moved from "the etheric plane to the physical" via a process of "distillation." Note here that she calls momentum "latent arcane energy" which should tell us that the energy used to cast spells is that same energy as makes ordinary objects move. Also note that she says this energy is moved from the "etheric plane" presumably where magical energy is stored. This is important because it establishes that the energy which propels the bullet, or even a rock dropped off a cliff, is the same type of energy as makes a spell work.

She concludes by saying the firing pin triggers a complex spell which releases the energy stored in the gunpowder.

This is "mind boggling" for her because it breaches several principles of Arcanan Physics. Those that jump out at me as probable include (although I don't have direct text evidence for them), only Sarkolis can be used to store magical energy, only living things can pull energy from the Etheric plane to the physical, and matter lacks inherent properties.

I suspect she tested it by saying an activation spell as she pulled the trigger, theorizing that the gun didn't work because the firing pin wasn't an arcane triggering mechanism on New Arcana.

When it worked she was terrified because it reveled that Sharonans believe all matter has an intrinsic connection to energy and if that becomes true on Arcana much of the magic that runs Arcanan society will cease to function.

Nicholas


Hi Peter,

If magistrons were unnecessary, why wouldnt the gun work normally for Jasek or for that that matter Jathmar? Gadrial did do something to make the gun work...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:10 pm

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As I said, Gadriel organized aether so that it did not interfere with the envisioned process. Until she KNEW what to expect in the process, she could not order/organize the aether to allow that process to happen.

Jasak does not have an affinity to do order aether NOR does he have a clear understanding of the process about to transpire when he pulls the trigger. Jathmar may or may not have the ability to order aether, but he does have a clear idea of what will happen. That understanding facilitates the process happening without interference. Or rather it give the aether guidelines on what to do.

Had Jasak clearly understood the firing process, would he have had similar results to Jathmar? I suspect he would have. Would a magister totally ignorant of the firing process but actively inhibiting aether from influencing the gun in any way managed the same results as Gadriel? I suspect yes.

Gadriel's discovery is that aether does not cause everything to happen. There are some interactions that do happen without etheric influence and some natural reactions that are inhibited by aether.

n7axw wrote:Hi Peter,

If magistrons were unnecessary, why wouldnt the gun work normally for Jasek or for that that matter Jathmar? Gadrial did do something to make the gun work...

Don

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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by brnicholas   » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:09 am

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Gadrial didn't utter an incantation, but on most of those few occasions when we have seen Magisters casting spells directly they haven't. Gadrial didn't make a sound, for example, when she stood between Shylar and a battle dragon and was suddenly surrounded by "a literal corona of light" and "fire seemed to crackle in midair three inches from her skin."

It seems unlikely to me, though that she feared that gifted would not be necessary. That is a political consequence and she isn't a politician she is a magical theorist. The level of fear she experienced and the speed with which it hits points to something she deeply knows, not something she doesn't pay much attention to.

Reading your posts, though I have modified my theory a bit. I currently think that on Arcana instead of being tightly tied to matter energy (at least kinetic and chemical) can easily and naturally transform to Arcana energy. This leads me to make several predictions:

1) Erosion is slower on Arcana because a measurable amount of the energy applied to rock on Sharona (or Earth) when water (for example hits it) transforms into Arcane energy on Arcana and doesn't affect the rock.

2) Any machinery that relies on storing energy in matter will have a problem on Arcana because some of that energy will turn into Arcane energy.

3) If this transformation process were to be disrupted Arcane motive spells would fail, for they relay on changing kinetic energy into arcane energy and vice versa for their effects. Note, this means the spells are much much less power intensive then I expected when I thought about them last.

I think it is effect three she saw and that explains her fear. If Sharonan beliefs, which prevent this change, become widespread all Arcanan physical transport spells will fail.

Nicholas

PeterZ wrote:One quibble that has major connotations. I don't believe she uttered an incantation. It wasn't necessary. If it was, Jathmar couldn't fire the gun. What she did was define the process and used her Gift to prevent aether from interfering with that defined process/spell inherent in the firing sequence.

What she feared is that magisters and magistrons would not be necessary. Recall that her fear is described as only a possibility even if this belief was widespread in Arcana.

It makes more sense to me to consider aether existing in the environment as interfering with much of the normal physical reactions. Since it reacts to mental activity, it follows that mental activity can inhibit that interference.

Otherwise, I think you are dead on.

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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:33 am

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That does make more sense to me. I do wonder if Gadriel's reliance on multiple planes to describe the effects of the arcane is a hypothetical construct or an actual description of the workings of aether?

Your description of arcane tech explains how energy can be conserved within each universe. Arcane energy is harnessed from the physical world and redirected to generate and/or offset forces to produce the desired effect. Yet, there exists a multiverse. How does the existence of all those planes of existence relate to one another? Are there more dimensions/planes that influence or can be made to influence a given universe?

Lots more questions waiting to be answered through inference while we enjoy the story.

brnicholas wrote:Gadrial didn't utter an incantation, but on most of those few occasions when we have seen Magisters casting spells directly they haven't. Gadrial didn't make a sound, for example, when she stood between Shylar and a battle dragon and was suddenly surrounded by "a literal corona of light" and "fire seemed to crackle in midair three inches from her skin."

It seems unlikely to me, though that she feared that gifted would not be necessary. That is a political consequence and she isn't a politician she is a magical theorist. The level of fear she experienced and the speed with which it hits points to something she deeply knows, not something she doesn't pay much attention to.

Reading your posts, though I have modified my theory a bit. I currently think that on Arcana instead of being tightly tied to matter energy (at least kinetic and chemical) can easily and naturally transform to Arcana energy. This leads me to make several predictions:

1) Erosion is slower on Arcana because a measurable amount of the energy applied to rock on Sharona (or Earth) when water (for example hits it) transforms into Arcane energy on Arcana and doesn't affect the rock.

2) Any machinery that relies on storing energy in matter will have a problem on Arcana because some of that energy will turn into Arcane energy.

3) If this transformation process were to be disrupted Arcane motive spells would fail, for they relay on changing kinetic energy into arcane energy and vice versa for their effects. Note, this means the spells are much much less power intensive then I expected when I thought about them last.

I think it is effect three she saw and that explains her fear. If Sharonan beliefs, which prevent this change, become widespread all Arcanan physical transport spells will fail.

Nicholas
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Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:54 pm

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Peter Z, b r nicholas,

You both found things about Arcane Theory in the books,
that I did not find. Are you sure that you are not applying
data from other sources than the Three Books?

HTM

PeterZ wrote:One quibble that has major connotations. I don't believe she uttered an incantation. It wasn't necessary. If it was, Jathmar couldn't fire the gun. What she did was define the process and used her Gift to prevent aether from interfering with that defined process/spell inherent in the firing sequence.

What she feared is that magisters and magistrons would not be necessary. Recall that her fear is described as only a possibility even if this belief was widespread in Arcana.

It makes more sense to me to consider aether existing in the environment as interfering with much of the normal physical reactions. Since it reacts to mental activity, it follows that mental activity can inhibit that interference.

Otherwise, I think you are dead on.

brnicholas wrote:But what did Gadriel realize and why did it terrify her "out of her seriously intelligent wits?"

I think the clue is in her description of the way a rifle functions. What she said is that gunpowder is "the incarnation of motive energies" that is energy of motion made into a physical object.

This "latent arcane energy" is moved from "the etheric plane to the physical" via a process of "distillation." Note here that she calls momentum "latent arcane energy" which should tell us that the energy used to cast spells is that same energy as makes ordinary objects move. Also note that she says this energy is moved from the "etheric plane" presumably where magical energy is stored. This is important because it establishes that the energy which propels the bullet, or even a rock dropped off a cliff, is the same type of energy as makes a spell work.

She concludes by saying the firing pin triggers a complex spell which releases the energy stored in the gunpowder.

This is "mind boggling" for her because it breaches several principles of Arcanan Physics. Those that jump out at me as probable include (although I don't have direct text evidence for them), only Sarkolis can be used to store magical energy, only living things can pull energy from the Etheric plane to the physical, and matter lacks inherent properties.

I suspect she tested it by saying an activation spell as she pulled the trigger, theorizing that the gun didn't work because the firing pin wasn't an arcane triggering mechanism on New Arcana.

When it worked she was terrified because it reveled that Sharonans believe all matter has an intrinsic connection to energy and if that becomes true on Arcana much of the magic that runs Arcanan society will cease to function.

Nicholas
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by brnicholas   » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:50 am

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I absolutely am applying data from other sources then the three books. I'm guessing when the books are unclear too.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Peter Z, b r nicholas,

You both found things about Arcane Theory in the books,
that I did not find. Are you sure that you are not applying
data from other sources than the Three Books?

HTM

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