Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:38 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5178
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Nicholas,

As I said in another thread Talents work in that dimension where the mind resides. The same dimension that holds aether. As aether is brought into the physical dimensions less of it remains in its natural home. That lack limits Talents in universes where magic is heavily used.
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by Randomiser   » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:33 am

Randomiser
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1150
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: Scotland

PeterZ wrote:Nicholas,

As I said in another thread Talents work in that dimension where the mind resides. The same dimension that holds aether. As aether is brought into the physical dimensions less of it remains in its natural home. That lack limits Talents in universes where magic is heavily used.


Are you saying spells should work full force on Sharona once someone Gifted get's there because the aether isn't currently being used up? Or do you reckon Talents use up aether too, in which case shouldn't Talents and magic both decline over the years as population expands and more aether is getting used up? I'm also pretty sure that the problems with the Griffons flagged up as the Arcanans move forward is an authorial hint that the strength of the restraint spells is beginning to decline. I suspect that magic will be found to decline as one gets nearer Sharona. By how much is as yet unclear.
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by n7axw   » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:43 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4576
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Randomiser wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Nicholas,

As I said in another thread Talents work in that dimension where the mind resides. The same dimension that holds aether. As aether is brought into the physical dimensions less of it remains in its natural home. That lack limits Talents in universes where magic is heavily used.


Are you saying spells should work full force on Sharona once someone Gifted get's there because the aether isn't currently being used up? Or do you reckon Talents use up aether too, in which case shouldn't Talents and magic both decline over the years as population expands and more aether is getting used up? I'm also pretty sure that the problems with the Griffons flagged up as the Arcanans move forward is an authorial hint that the strength of the restraint spells is beginning to decline. I suspect that magic will be found to decline as one gets nearer Sharona. By how much is as yet unclear.


Yeah. By the time the Arcanans arrive in Sharona, they shouldn't be able to conjure up an illusion by the logic we have been presented. I'm still working on the bit with the rifle, though.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:53 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5178
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Randomiser wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Nicholas,

As I said in another thread Talents work in that dimension where the mind resides. The same dimension that holds aether. As aether is brought into the physical dimensions less of it remains in its natural home. That lack limits Talents in universes where magic is heavily used.


Are you saying spells should work full force on Sharona once someone Gifted get's there because the aether isn't currently being used up? Or do you reckon Talents use up aether too, in which case shouldn't Talents and magic both decline over the years as population expands and more aether is getting used up? I'm also pretty sure that the problems with the Griffons flagged up as the Arcanans move forward is an authorial hint that the strength of the restraint spells is beginning to decline. I suspect that magic will be found to decline as one gets nearer Sharona. By how much is as yet unclear.


I postulate aether is never used up. It is merely transported from one dimension to another and has its form changed by arcane spells. Text has sources in the physical world that generate aether for use in spells. Places where water meets rocks is one such source ie Garth Showma Falls and the Mythal coastline.

The more aether is called into the physical multiverse the less is available in the dimension of the mind to facilitate Talents working. Perhaps there is an attraction principle working as well, much like water's surface tension. The more aether exists in the physical dimensions, the easier it is to draw more aether into the physical multiverse. As more aether enters into the physical multiverse the more readily the baseline physics is countered by aether fueled spells. In universes with very little aether, the baseline physics resists being countered.

All of this is influenced by thinking minds. Where thinking minds call to aether to enter the physical universe and influence the baseline physics, aether grows more amendable to being used in that way. Where aether is called to remain in the dimension of the mind and facilitate connecting minds to other minds or the physical universe around the mind, aether grows more amenable to doing just that.

I know this is all speculation, but RFC is notorious for trying real hard to make his worlds both internally consistent and logical. I am simply trying to think of ways that connect text clues into something that is systematic and conducive to the telling of his story. Not much else to do between books.
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:44 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5362
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Randomiser wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Nicholas,

As I said in another thread Talents work in that dimension where the mind resides. The same dimension that holds aether. As aether is brought into the physical dimensions less of it remains in its natural home. That lack limits Talents in universes where magic is heavily used.


Are you saying spells should work full force on Sharona once someone Gifted get's there because the aether isn't currently being used up? Or do you reckon Talents use up aether too, in which case shouldn't Talents and magic both decline over the years as population expands and more aether is getting used up? I'm also pretty sure that the problems with the Griffons flagged up as the Arcanans move forward is an authorial hint that the strength of the restraint spells is beginning to decline. I suspect that magic will be found to decline as one gets nearer Sharona. By how much is as yet unclear.
RFC said at one point (IIRC) that the population of each universe altered the physics, and that as the demographics change so would the physics. I'd assumed he'd meant the metaphysics of Talent vs Gift, but apparently it's far more pervasive than that.

I also wonder if the increasing breakdowns on the Bisons and Mules as they advanced towards Hell's Gate was entirely due to prolonged use; might have been early indications of what we'd think of a s physics becoming slightly off as you got away from Sharonan populated universes...
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by Astelon   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:08 pm

Astelon
Commander

Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:13 pm

I doubt Bison breakdowns where the results of Physics changes, there likely weren't enough Arcanan outside of Karys (the AEF itself) or Mahritha to have any effect. Even in those two worlds I doubt it would have been enough. Shaylar and Jathmar had traveled through multiple Universe before they started noticing it, I suspect the machinery would be the same.
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by Keith_w   » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:50 am

Keith_w
Commodore

Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:10 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Astelon wrote:I doubt Bison breakdowns where the results of Physics changes, there likely weren't enough Arcanan outside of Karys (the AEF itself) or Mahritha to have any effect. Even in those two worlds I doubt it would have been enough. Shaylar and Jathmar had traveled through multiple Universe before they started noticing it, I suspect the machinery would be the same.


I thought about that too, but then I remembered that Gadriel had mentioned that some explorers had mentioned less effective magic when in new universes, and so thought that 1) Until the magic/talent population increases significantly the physics is still unstable and 2) Arcanans had recently been in those universes in reasonably serious numbers, so the physics could have been destabilized by that aa well.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:57 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5362
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Keith_w wrote:
Astelon wrote:I doubt Bison breakdowns where the results of Physics changes, there likely weren't enough Arcanan outside of Karys (the AEF itself) or Mahritha to have any effect. Even in those two worlds I doubt it would have been enough. Shaylar and Jathmar had traveled through multiple Universe before they started noticing it, I suspect the machinery would be the same.


I thought about that too, but then I remembered that Gadriel had mentioned that some explorers had mentioned less effective magic when in new universes, and so thought that 1) Until the magic/talent population increases significantly the physics is still unstable and 2) Arcanans had recently been in those universes in reasonably serious numbers, so the physics could have been destabilized by that aa well.
Also there's just the simple fact that not enough Sharonans had been in those universes (fairly recently explored, very sparsely settled) to move the baseline 'default' physics over towards Sharonan physics.

In theory the physics could be fairly slightly off without having much noticeable effect on the relatively low tech the survey crews carried. A slight reduction in talent range/capability; a slight increase in unreliability of their most finicky hardware. But most of the things, like their guns, are selected for their extreme reliability. And to some extent it seems that their users belief in their innate reliability should help them remain reliable in the fact of 'default physics'; because it'd help quickly warp those physics towards correct functioning for Sharonans.

But brand new, and much higher tech and lower reliability high power steam propulsion would (it seems to me) be more vulnerable to minor deviations in physics AND receive less benefit from their users bedrock belief in their reliability.


Clearly, so far, it's not a major factor. But it might be a hint that the Bisons and Mules are starting to show decreased reliability as they get further from heavily occupied Sharonan universes. (Or not)
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by ShrnR   » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:22 pm

ShrnR
Midshipman

Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:53 pm

Both Arcanans and Sharonans repeatedly describe the other folks' tools and methods as "unnatural." I believe their complete rejection of those items in those terms indicates not just their insularity, but also the unconscious recognition that the laws of physics of their universe have been violated. As long as they have approached each new universe expecting their home rules to apply, apparently those rules HAVE applied. Until now. If Sharona got there first, then Sharona's rules apply, and vice versa.

Whether or not their use of Gifts and Talents has shaped the physics of their universes, it seems to be obvious that the home worlds are essentially safe from attack if the opposing technology is ineffective there. That leaves the war to be fought only in the intermediate universes where both sets of weapons will function. That may give us a nice, looong Weber/Presby series (yay!).

Personally, I enjoy the scenes set in Sharona a lot more than the ones in Arcana. I can't wait to find out what Andrin does to the Seneschal, and if Zindel is able to continue ruling.
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by Keith_w   » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:35 pm

Keith_w
Commodore

Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:10 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

ShrnR wrote:Both Arcanans and Sharonans repeatedly describe the other folks' tools and methods as "unnatural." I believe their complete rejection of those items in those terms indicates not just their insularity, but also the unconscious recognition that the laws of physics of their universe have been violated. As long as they have approached each new universe expecting their home rules to apply, apparently those rules HAVE applied. Until now. If Sharona got there first, then Sharona's rules apply, and vice versa.

Whether or not their use of Gifts and Talents has shaped the physics of their universes, it seems to be obvious that the home worlds are essentially safe from attack if the opposing technology is ineffective there. That leaves the war to be fought only in the intermediate universes where both sets of weapons will function. That may give us a nice, looong Weber/Presby series (yay!).

Personally, I enjoy the scenes set in Sharona a lot more than the ones in Arcana. I can't wait to find out what Andrin does to the Seneschal, and if Zindel is able to continue ruling.


You do realize he is dead don't you? - not having an actual (as opposed to an emotional) heart will do that to you.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
Top

Return to Multiverse