Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:23 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4799
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Ditto. I'll add interpolation and flat out speculation based on that data.

brnicholas wrote:I absolutely am applying data from other sources then the three books. I'm guessing when the books are unclear too.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Peter Z, b r nicholas,

You both found things about Arcane Theory in the books,
that I did not find. Are you sure that you are not applying
data from other sources than the Three Books?

HTM

Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:32 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4799
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Upon further consideration, I believe your #2 and by extension #3 explain the gun firing at various levels of effectiveness. Arcana and New Arcana are developed worlds. They have a network that facilitates the collection of arcane energy. This has been referenced several times. This network does exactly as you posit; collects physical energy and transforms it into arcane energy. Most of that energy is stored, but some of that energy remains free to be shaped by spells and enchanted creatures, like the Duke's carriage horses that can run as fast as a bullet fired from a musket. Either that or leakage.

So, unless the collection spell/network is stopped from collecting the physical energy, it will siphon off some portion of the energy released by the chemical reaction of the gunpowder. Gadriel can prohibit the collection system from capturing the released energy. Magisters MUST be able to stop the network from collecting the energy from specified areas if for no other reason than they need to run experiments on new effects. Removing the energy collection effects would reduce the experiments' variables.

Furthermore, Jathmar's understanding of the chemical process does allow the process to proceed. I believe that the aether surrounding him is guided by his understanding to let the reaction take place. Once the reaction takes place, a significant portion of the energy released is absorbed by Arcana's energy collection system. The result is that weak discharge.

I don't believe that Arcana's motive spells are in any danger of not working. Once collected the aether can be shaped by a Gifted mind. The issue is that aether appears to be influenced by ALL minds. I suspect that Sharona's underlying beliefs structure increases the threshold for arcane effects to manifest through spells.

brnicholas wrote:Gadrial didn't utter an incantation, but on most of those few occasions when we have seen Magisters casting spells directly they haven't. Gadrial didn't make a sound, for example, when she stood between Shylar and a battle dragon and was suddenly surrounded by "a literal corona of light" and "fire seemed to crackle in midair three inches from her skin."

It seems unlikely to me, though that she feared that gifted would not be necessary. That is a political consequence and she isn't a politician she is a magical theorist. The level of fear she experienced and the speed with which it hits points to something she deeply knows, not something she doesn't pay much attention to.

Reading your posts, though I have modified my theory a bit. I currently think that on Arcana instead of being tightly tied to matter energy (at least kinetic and chemical) can easily and naturally transform to Arcana energy. This leads me to make several predictions:

1) Erosion is slower on Arcana because a measurable amount of the energy applied to rock on Sharona (or Earth) when water (for example hits it) transforms into Arcane energy on Arcana and doesn't affect the rock.

2) Any machinery that relies on storing energy in matter will have a problem on Arcana because some of that energy will turn into Arcane energy.

3) If this transformation process were to be disrupted Arcane motive spells would fail, for they relay on changing kinetic energy into arcane energy and vice versa for their effects. Note, this means the spells are much much less power intensive then I expected when I thought about them last.

I think it is effect three she saw and that explains her fear. If Sharonan beliefs, which prevent this change, become widespread all Arcanan physical transport spells will fail.

Nicholas

PeterZ wrote:One quibble that has major connotations. I don't believe she uttered an incantation. It wasn't necessary. If it was, Jathmar couldn't fire the gun. What she did was define the process and used her Gift to prevent aether from interfering with that defined process/spell inherent in the firing sequence.

What she feared is that magisters and magistrons would not be necessary. Recall that her fear is described as only a possibility even if this belief was widespread in Arcana.

It makes more sense to me to consider aether existing in the environment as interfering with much of the normal physical reactions. Since it reacts to mental activity, it follows that mental activity can inhibit that interference.

Otherwise, I think you are dead on.

Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by thanatos   » Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:30 pm

thanatos
Commander

Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:29 pm
Location: United States

I think the reason is a bit simpler. Sharona is essentially closer to our reality (in the 1930s) in that its scientific processes are like ours. Telepathy and all the other talents are all scientific possibilities even in our world. But Arcana didn't develop that way. Some of their people discovered a different way (magic) to manipulate the natural world around them. As such, they are still limited to arbalests, swords and other cold weaponry.

But the reason the rifle doesn't work properly in Arcana's core universes is because magic probably permeates everything there more thoroughly and actually interferes with the normal laws of physics. It would essentially mean that every Gifted person is always using his magic, even if only subconsciously. Once Gadriel compensated for this, once she withdrew all the magic in and around the rifle, it worked. And her horrifying realization was that Sharona does not need to add it's Talents to operate their weapons whereas Arcana does. I also think that it means that while Arcana obviously has a defensive advantage in its core universes, they would need to use a lot of magic to generate a similar degree of interference and that still wouldn't affect Sharonian outside of a heavily "magicked" area (like say on the opposite side of a portal). So belief doesn't enter into the calculations.
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by Max   » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:53 pm

Max
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:53 pm

I'm going to point out that the "physics" in both fictional universes is not the physics we use. Further, the physics you and I and David all knows enters into the balance at some point. So let's look at the "propellant" as well as the people...

It could be that the "propellant" is not "gun powder" as we know it. Assume for a moment that it is naturally somewhat weaker than we expect. Add to its effectiveness a variable quality that is somewhat tied to the particular universe where it is being used. In the Arcanans end of the multiverse, it is robbed of some of its "omph" while its "omph" is enhanced in the Sharonan end of the multiverse. Add an additional factor based on the mindset of the user.

Here we have Gadriel doing something remarkable with her mind. As a guess, she has just gotten a handle on the difference property of the multiverses and twisted it around. She pulled up the Sharonan aspect and pushed down the Arcanan aspect. She has a whole new field (in both the mathematical and physical senses) to explore. It factors her understanding of how the world and magic work. It's a super-genius level insight. Of course she is disturbed... And then there is the impact of that on the war...

Oh, and by-the-way, she's just used a Talent...
Top
Re: Spoiler! Gadriel's Realization Spoiler!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:16 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5023
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

thanatos wrote:But the reason the rifle doesn't work properly in Arcana's core universes is because magic probably permeates everything there more thoroughly and actually interferes with the normal laws of physics. It would essentially mean that every Gifted person is always using his magic, even if only subconsciously. Once Gadriel compensated for this, once she withdrew all the magic in and around the rifle, it worked. And her horrifying realization was that Sharona does not need to add it's Talents to operate their weapons whereas Arcana does.
I doubt that could be her horrifying realization as everyone who has come into contact with Sharonan weaponry already knew that. That's not a new horrifying realization. (It is an old and alarming bit of information, but it wouldn't have newly horrified Gadriel then, during the demonstration).

If anything knowledge that magic permeation screws up the mechanical weapons of Sharona should be reassuring, not horrifying. She already knew Talents got less capable as you moved towards Arcana, but until this demonstration there was still a specter of Sharona being able to equip mass formation of non-talented soldiers with guns and artillery; and keep most of their military effectiveness if they push forward; despite the loss of Talents. This should be especially reassuring once confirmation that Gifts and spells are similarly weakened as you move towards Sharona; the fact that guns, not just Talents, are affected means both sides are similarly unable to effectively advance to close to the other's home universe; Sharon through their utilization of non-Gifted, non-Talented, weapons doesn't have the feared/expected advantage there.

I think her actual realization has to be something more related to how their magic works. But I'm not sure what.
Top

Return to Multiverse