Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:17 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6308
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Don,

Harshu took command so that his second in command wouldn't. That bozo would have been more brutal. As he described it to his exec at Ft. Salby, mul Guthak seemed to want serious violations of the Kerellian Accords. His taking command would reduce the actual atrocities committed and would improve the odds that any perpetrators would be punished.

Harshu was trying to mitigate an awful situation AND secure a military advantage for Arcana. Guess he crapped out on both counts.
Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:34 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5101
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

PeterZ wrote:Don,

Harshu took command so that his second in command wouldn't. That bozo would have been more brutal. As he described it to his exec at Ft. Salby, mul Guthak seemed to want serious violations of the Kerellian Accords. His taking command would reduce the actual atrocities committed and would improve the odds that any perpetrators would be punished.

Harshu was trying to mitigate an awful situation AND secure a military advantage for Arcana. Guess he crapped out on both counts.


Right. And as a consequence he put himself directly in the line of fire.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:57 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6308
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

No one says that meeting your responsibility as you see it means you survive. Only that should you die, you do it knowing that you met the demands your honor placed before you. Others might not agree, but honor is a gift one gives to oneself.
Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:53 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5101
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

PeterZ wrote:No one says that meeting your responsibility as you see it means you survive. Only that should you die, you do it knowing that you met the demands your honor placed before you. Others might not agree, but honor is a gift one gives to oneself.


One bestows honor upon ones self by acting honorably, by being someone others can depend upon to do the right thing. Harshu should have reigned Neshok in long before he actually did. Instead, he surrendered to expediency because he needed what Neshok was producing.

Rediscovering his honor by refusing to sweep what happened under the rug is a major step toward redemption. Of course, I'm a bit of a sucker for redemption. But that doesn't change what happened, and I'm afraid that it can only go so far in mitigating the consequences.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:29 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6308
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

I don't really disagree. I would only suggest that Harshu sacrificed his honor to achieve what he deemed was his responsibility. He was tasked with what believed to be military goals from a lawful superior. He chose to adopt distastful expedients to accomplish those goals.

Mul Guthak was already going to assassinate the Sharonan diplomatic team. That resumption of hostilities in such a dishonorable fashion was going to elicit a powerful Sharonan response. Since that would happen in any case, it is not unreasonable for Harshu to want to gain a military advantage before that response manifests. Had he believed all this to be true and inevitable once the diplomatic team was killed, gaining that military advantage becomes very important for his nation.

n7axw wrote:
PeterZ wrote:No one says that meeting your responsibility as you see it means you survive. Only that should you die, you do it knowing that you met the demands your honor placed before you. Others might not agree, but honor is a gift one gives to oneself.


One bestows honor upon ones self by acting honorably, by being someone others can depend upon to do the right thing. Harshu should have reigned Neshok in long before he actually did. Instead, he surrendered to expediency because he needed what Neshok was producing.

Rediscovering his honor by refusing to sweep what happened under the rug is a major step toward redemption. Of course, I'm a bit of a sucker for redemption. But that doesn't change what happened, and I'm afraid that it can only go so far in mitigating the consequences.

Don

-
Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:37 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5101
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

PeterZ wrote:I don't really disagree. I would only suggest that Harshu sacrificed his honor to achieve what he deemed was his responsibility. He was tasked with what believed to be military goals from a lawful superior. He chose to adopt distastful expedients to accomplish those goals.

Mul Guthak was already going to assassinate the Sharonan diplomatic team. That resumption of hostilities in such a dishonorable fashion was going to elicit a powerful Sharonan response. Since that would happen in any case, it is not unreasonable for Harshu to want to gain a military advantage before that response manifests. Had he believed all this to be true and inevitable once the diplomatic team was killed, gaining that military advantage becomes very important for his nation.



The temptation to think and act that way is as old as war itself. That is the reason for the Korellian Accords, or for that matter, the Geneva Conventions. They say no to the abuse of the helpless, people such as civilians and POWs. When honored, they say no to the endless rationalizing for the sake of advantage. Your post very nicely explains why Harshu acted as he did. Excuse it or justify it, it does not.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:38 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6308
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

I don't try to justify it and neither does Harshu. He understands your position and agrees with it, Don. He still acted as he did fully expecting to recieve that punishment he rightly deserved. He accepted command and mul Guthik's plan recognizing that to reject or even argue too strenuously would put that despicable 1,000 in charge. He accepted command and the battle plan in order to limit the attrocities he knew his replacement would have reveled in.

So even though Harshu sacrificed his honor, he did his best to mes his responsibilities. Recall even Sharonans killed Voices as standard practice before non-lethal alternatives were developed. I still think he could have avoided killing Voices as well as avoid torturing POWs and he should have avoided both. I also think that Harshu displayed a large degree of moral courage in navigating the political minefields mul Guthik laid out for him. He did not try hard enough to avoid expedients but accepts the consequence for his choices. Not only accepts the consequence but is actively ensuring that they are levied against all who were responsible for commuting violations of the Kerellian Accords. This includes himself.
Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:40 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5101
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

PeterZ wrote:I don't try to justify it and neither does Harshu. He understands your position and agrees with it, Don. He still acted as he did fully expecting to recieve that punishment he rightly deserved. He accepted command and mul Guthik's plan recognizing that to reject or even argue too strenuously would put that despicable 1,000 in charge. He accepted command and the battle plan in order to limit the attrocities he knew his replacement would have reveled in.

So even though Harshu sacrificed his honor, he did his best to mes his responsibilities. Recall even Sharonans killed Voices as standard practice before non-lethal alternatives were developed. I still think he could have avoided killing Voices as well as avoid torturing POWs and he should have avoided both. I also think that Harshu displayed a large degree of moral courage in navigating the political minefields mul Guthik laid out for him. He did not try hard enough to avoid expedients but accepts the consequence for his choices. Not only accepts the consequence but is actively ensuring that they are levied against all who were responsible for commuting violations of the Kerellian Accords. This includes himself.


It finally boils down to actions and consequences, doesn't it. Gurthak was looking for the right people to incriminate in his little game as he plotted against Andara in an attempt to assert Mythal's control over Arcana.

The unseen consequences of the choices Harshu makes is that he becomes a pawn on the chessboard of mul Guthak's conspiracy. If all the Andarans refuse to play the game by compromising their honor, mul Gurthak has no pieces for his board.

That of course is unrealistic. Neshok is still there. Thalmayr is still there. Carthas (sp) is still there. These people have the morality of pimps working dockside whores. And even given the Andaran honor code, were these people not available to mul Gurthak, there will always be others, yes, even other Andarans, to replace them.

So what choice should Harshu have made? It's not always clear cut, is it? I think you are right to suggest that he could have reigned in his subordinates. Had he made it plain that he would not tolerate violations of the accords, his intel might not have been as good and the enemy might have been forewarned, but I suspect that it wouldn't have changed the outcome much anyway. But I still think that it would have been best to refuse to play mul Gurthak's game. At least that way he's not being used against his own people...the unseen consequences that are present with every decision.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:03 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6308
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Declining to play the game could be argued as increasing the danger for hid subordinates and the Sharonans on the frontier. Yes, Andara would be more at risk but there are others higher up in government can deal with the plot. Where is Harshu's primary responsibility?

Mitigating mul Gurthik's plot is arguably Harshu's primary responsibility. There is very few people with the pull of Harshu to mitigate the plot.
Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:57 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5101
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

PeterZ wrote:Declining to play the game could be argued as increasing the danger for hid subordinates and the Sharonans on the frontier. Yes, Andara would be more at risk but there are others higher up in government can deal with the plot. Where is Harshu's primary responsibility?

Mitigating mul Gurthik's plot is arguably Harshu's primary responsibility. There is very few people with the pull of Harshu to mitigate the plot.


Frankly, Harshu could scarcely mitigate a plot he didn't know about. His role in the plot was one of those hidden consequences, something he didn't know about. My point is that in making the choices he did, there were consequences he couldn't have anticipated. By surrendering honor he played into Gurthak's plot. Like my dad used to say, when you cut corners, bad things happen. You can't guarantee that everything that hapens when you don't cut corners will be good. But it is more likely to turn out that way.

Accepting the command wasn't dishonorable although Harshu made a mistake in accepting verbal instructions rather than insisting that everything be spelled out in writing.

His handling of Neshok by not stopping what he was doing was dishonorable and directly reflects on him. He should have put a trustworthy subordinate in charge of the advance up the other chain. That was at minimum questionable. While Thalmayr was Harshu's responsibility, he couldn't have predicted what Thalmayr would do and gives every indication of responding honorably to the situation. His intent in being fully cooperative with the IG is obviously honorable.

What it finally boils down to is Harshu's failure to control his subordinates, especially Neshok. That's where the corners were cut.

After that the crap---and there is plenty---flows up hill to mul Gurthak who unfortunately feels no commitment to deal honorably with anyone other than other Shakira.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top

Return to Multiverse