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Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:46 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Re-read the coronation scene with Zindel. Text addresses what his ancestors did with the Crown of the Ternaithian Empire. Zindel's ancestors were free to accept the burden of the Crown, but once accepted the Crown forced its wearer to fulfill the Imperial Oath.

Zindel might well offer Chava a choice; live and accept the crown with its compulsion or reject the crown and die.


Humm... just reread. There are still a couple of holes in this that I can see. First is that the oath must be taken willingly. There are no circumstances under which Chava would take that oath that would not include coercion in some form.

Secondly, the compulsion is tied to the winged crown. Do we even know it can be duplicated for a different context? We really don't know that it can be tied to the crown of Uromathia or that it could force fealty in a vassal liege lord relationship.

Finally, reading through that oath Zindel took, the ideals are lofty, but it is so general and requires so much interpretation that it is hard to imagine what action the compulsion could enforce. For example, if Chava should become firmly and honestly convinced that Sharona would be better off without the Caliraths, the compulsion could conceivably help him accomplish that.

Dunno, Peter, it looks to me like it would be better to find a good man to take Chava's place to start with even with the possibility of unrest in Uromath. Howan Fai could be such a candidate but he is Andrin's consort and is needed in Tajana.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:07 am

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I don't really disagree. I am just trying to follow potential alternatives. After all, whatever happens will likely be a surprise.

n7axw wrote:
PeterZ wrote:
Re-read the coronation scene with Zindel. Text addresses what his ancestors did with the Crown of the Ternaithian Empire. Zindel's ancestors were free to accept the burden of the Crown, but once accepted the Crown forced its wearer to fulfill the Imperial Oath.

Zindel might well offer Chava a choice; live and accept the crown with its compulsion or reject the crown and die.


Humm... just reread. There are still a couple of holes in this that I can see. First is that the oath must be taken willingly. There are no circumstances under which Chava would take that oath that would not include coercion in some form.

Secondly, the compulsion is tied to the winged crown. Do we even know it can be duplicated for a different context? We really don't know that it can be tied to the crown of Uromathia or that it could force fealty in a vassal liege lord relationship.

Finally, reading through that oath Zindel took, the ideals are lofty, but it is so general and requires so much interpretation that it is hard to imagine what action the compulsion could enforce. For example, if Chava should become firmly and honestly convinced that Sharona would be better off without the Caliraths, the compulsion could conceivably help him accomplish that.

Dunno, Peter, it looks to me like it would be better to find a good man to take Chava's place to start with even with the possibility of unrest in Uromath. Howan Fai could be such a candidate but he is Andrin's consort and is needed in Tajana.

Don

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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:02 pm

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Peter,

from "The Wilkins Dictionary:"

"Civilized" means "able to live in peace with those who are not
ones' kin, and whose language and customs differ from yours."
Their largest possible community is a "city."
From Latin "civis" = city.

"Barbarian" means "able to live in peace with those who are
not ones' kin, provided that they speak the same language and
share several important customs."
Their largest possible community is a "town" in which everyone
hears everyone else speaking the same language.
From Greek "bar-bar" = they don't understand the others' words,
so ass-u-me that those words are meaningless.
(Those Greeks were the best example of "barbarians" that the
world has ever seen!)

"Savage" means "able to live in peace only with those whom one
knows to be kin, but not with anyone else even if they share
language or customs."
Their largest possible community is a "village" in which
everyone knows how they are kin to each other villager.

If the Mythalan Shakira are not able to live in peace with
anyone who is not Shakira or (warriors - I forget the word),
then by definition they are barbarians!
No matter how good their artwork is. Savages make good art!

Howard "True Map-addict" Wilkins

PeterZ wrote:Don,

Civilized does not denote moral or adaptive. Mythal is ultra civilized and has a moral code only a relativist could find value in. Civilized in that they have the society has mores and folkways that are effective in maintaining a large complex society.
{snip - htm}
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:09 pm

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Is the incapacity of his sons, a thing that a Chava realizes?

HTM

PeterZ wrote:
{snip - htm}
Chava adopts Andrin's husband as his heir when he realizes
just how bad his {descendants?} are as rulers of his Empire.
{snip - htm}
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:53 pm

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The thing that really shakes me up about Shakira is they are obligated to not deal in good faith with anyone other than Shakira.

It's mind blowing that the rest of Arcana would ever consent to them being in a position of responsibility, let alone a position such as mul Gurthak holds.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:51 pm

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I suspect many Arcanans believe that not all Shakira actually are devout enough to practice that bit of vileness. Sure the religion says that, but Arcanans might believe individual Shakira do not adhere to that practice in these progressive times.

n7axw wrote:The thing that really shakes me up about Shakira is they are obligated to not deal in good faith with anyone other than Shakira.

It's mind blowing that the rest of Arcana would ever consent to them being in a position of responsibility, let alone a position such as mul Gurthak holds.

Don

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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:00 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I suspect many Arcanans believe that not all Shakira actually are devout enough to practice that bit of vileness. Sure the religion says that, but Arcanans might believe individual Shakira do not adhere to that practice in these progressive times.

n7axw wrote:The thing that really shakes me up about Shakira is they are obligated to not deal in good faith with anyone other than Shakira.

It's mind blowing that the rest of Arcana would ever consent to them being in a position of responsibility, let alone a position such as mul Gurthak holds.

Don

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The really pertinent question would be how many Shikira believe it. Given human nature, it often takes less encouragement to behave poorly than to persist in welldoing especially if messing up is convienient or suits our desires and prejudices.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by ericth   » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:20 pm

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As an aside, am I the only one who noticed that the Ternathian 37 seems a great deal like the German 88?
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:34 pm

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::a Naughty Moose asks::
Are you sure that it isn't more like the French 75? :D

Naughty Moose

ericth wrote:As an aside, am I the only one who noticed that the Ternathian 37 seems a great deal like the German 88?
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:41 am

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I have been thiinking about Harshu...

He seems to me to be both culprit and victim.

On the one hand he is criminally guilty of consenting to malfeasance by people under his command, both consenting to the murder of voices to prevent them from warning Sharonians in his path and depriving him of the element of surprise and Neshok's torture of POWs for the intel they need to plan the Arcanan advance, contary to law as Arcana has enshrined it in the Kerellian accords. Further, he seems to have sacrificed his honor as an Andaran officer in this in the name of what he perceives as his duty as the commander of the AEF. Finally he apparently consents to lie to the army about Sharonian treatment of POWs and who initiated the war.

On the other hand, he has been set up to fail by a superior, mul Gurthak, whose intent is not only to trash his career, but also to cost him his life. He is given written orders to regain Hell's Gate but then given verbal instructions that lead him to drive deeply into Sharonian territory and then has those verbal instructions jerked out from under him with the obvious intent of setting him up as the fall guy with his superiors for going beyond his written instructions with the AEF's offensive. Adding insult to injury here, he is sent out with a striking force which while powerful enough to overwhelm portal forts is nevertheless too weak to confront major enemy forces. Repulsed at Ft Salby, he sits waiting on reinforcements that never arrive due to the fact that mul Gurthak apparently never intended to send them to start with. So now he finds him trapped between two Sharonian armies, both of which are too strong for him to fight.

But perhaps the most interesting thing about Harshu is that he apparently intends to come clean with his superiors. Not only does he order a thorough going investigation of Thalmayr's abuse of prisoners, he apparently expects Neshok's behavior and his own role in that to come out in the IG's investigation and has no intention of sweeping it under the carpet. It's as though he is seeking to recover the honor he sacrificed to expediency earlier.

All of this makes Harshu one of the most fascinating characters in the series so far. It will be interesting to see how his situation is finally resolved.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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