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Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD

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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:02 pm

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I would think that mul Gurthak's failure to honor the chain of command by not reporting in to the commandery would justify relievibg him of command for the sector.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:04 pm

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1) Which Official Report?

Regional Governor mur Gurthik sent his Official Report to
the Ministry of Exploration promptly.
That Ministry has not yet shared it with the High Commandery,
which is the Ministry's fault, not the Governor's.

Sector Commander mul Gurthik's Official Report to the
High Commandery (perhaps via intervening sectors)
had not been received by the end of R2H!

2) Reasons to supercede or relieve him:
A: A Com-2000 is too junior for the position,
which now includes fighting a major war.
B: He mis-handled the job, or was deemed to have.
C: Failure to report promptly.

Note: all these are Opinions of the High Commandery.
They do not need proof.

3) Actually, Div-Cap chan Gerith took over *before* his
troops arrived, when his entry into Traisum gave him
Voice communications. Corp-Cap chan Rowlan superceded him
even earlier, while still several universes away.

The Arcanans might have rushed some generals to the front
by Dragon Relay, had they chosen so.

HTM

brnicholas wrote:
Howard T. Map-addict wrote:
I would have thought that by the time of Fifth Corps' attack,
about four months after Fort Salby battle, Arcana would have
had time to send generals from home to the front.



Maybe, but
1) just how long did mul Gurthik delay his official report
2) and what would be the justification for replacing mul
Gurthik as governor?

3) Note, the Sharonan generals took over, when their troops arrived, not as soon as they could get there and Arcanan reinforcements have not had time to arrive.

{snip - htm}

Nicholas
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:24 pm

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It would seem to me that mul Gurthak is wearing two hats. One is his civilian hat as Governor of the sector. The other is is military one as a commander of 2000. That represents two chains of command. He failed to report to the commandery which would be a reason for relieving him of command. Whether or not a courts martial is called for would depend on the discovery of facts and the regs. But the commandery doesn't need to provide justification for reassigning him.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by phillies   » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:51 am

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n7axw wrote:It would seem to me that mul Gurthak is wearing two hats. One is his civilian hat as Governor of the sector. The other is is military one as a commander of 2000. That represents two chains of command. He failed to report to the commandery which would be a reason for relieving him of command. Whether or not a courts martial is called for would depend on the discovery of facts and the regs. But the commandery doesn't need to provide justification for reassigning him.

Don

-


" But the commandery doesn't need to provide justification for reassigning him." Having read the series, I do not believe we have adequate information as to how they run their organization to justify this assertion. You could be right, but perhaps textev is needed.
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by Keith_w   » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:58 am

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phillies wrote:
n7axw wrote:It would seem to me that mul Gurthak is wearing two hats. One is his civilian hat as Governor of the sector. The other is is military one as a commander of 2000. That represents two chains of command. He failed to report to the commandery which would be a reason for relieving him of command. Whether or not a courts martial is called for would depend on the discovery of facts and the regs. But the commandery doesn't need to provide justification for reassigning him.

Don

-


" But the commandery doesn't need to provide justification for reassigning him." Having read the series, I do not believe we have adequate information as to how they run their organization to justify this assertion. You could be right, but perhaps textev is needed.


Surely they have the right to recall him to explain in person his decisions including why they haven't heard yet that Harshu has gone off starting a war all by himself?
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by brnicholas   » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:01 am

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You are probably correct that in theory the High Commandery can relieve mul Gurthik at any time for any reason. However, if we look at when Jasek considered relieving Garlath it says that "Jasak had to leave him in command unless he requested relief or openly violated regulations or the articles of war" (HG Chapter 7). The High Commandery had no evidence of that for mul Gurthik until 50 Uther's message arrived in mid-January. And three months isn't enough time for them to get a replacement forward.

As for the Sharonan commanders they took over as soon as their units were close enough for them to exercise effect control. The Sharonan's voices made that over the last water gap instead of in Traisum but they still traveled with their units and weren't sent ahead. Which is what you are saying the Arcanans should have done.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:1) Which Official Report?

Regional Governor mur Gurthik sent his Official Report to
the Ministry of Exploration promptly.
That Ministry has not yet shared it with the High Commandery,
which is the Ministry's fault, not the Governor's.

Sector Commander mul Gurthik's Official Report to the
High Commandery (perhaps via intervening sectors)
had not been received by the end of R2H!

2) Reasons to supercede or relieve him:
A: A Com-2000 is too junior for the position,
which now includes fighting a major war.
B: He mis-handled the job, or was deemed to have.
C: Failure to report promptly.

Note: all these are Opinions of the High Commandery.
They do not need proof.

3) Actually, Div-Cap chan Gerith took over *before* his
troops arrived, when his entry into Traisum gave him
Voice communications. Corp-Cap chan Rowlan superceded him
even earlier, while still several universes away.

The Arcanans might have rushed some generals to the front
by Dragon Relay, had they chosen so.

HTM

Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:24 pm

Howard T. Map-addict
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Posts: 1391
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Indeed, br, you and phillies might be correct with your
suggestions that Army Regulations control whether and how
an officer might be removed from the unit he commands.

A senior officer might still say "in this Crisis, I need for
*that* officer to perform *that* task, even though it would
normally be the job of the Unit C/O.

But if bigger units, commanded by higher-ranking officers,
reach the Front, then the highest-ranked officer will command
all units present, even though he does not replace the C/O
of any of those units with a different officer.

And three months was enough time for Jasak's party to reach
Portalis. It would have been at least enough time for a
general and his staff to get to Fort Talon from Portalis.
And then R2H continues on until Jasak's Court-Martial verdict
is announced, three more months later. Had re-enforcements
left Portalis two days after Jasak arrived, they would have
reached HG Lines in time to help defend them from the Third
Dragoon Division. That didn't happen.

Regarding your last point, mul Girthak is commanding (or
supervising, or occasionally intervening with) the Arcanan
Expeditionary Force from Fort Talon, two Universes and some
six thousand miles from HG, and much further than that from
the Front, using hummers.

HTM

brnicholas wrote:You are probably correct that in theory the High Commandery can relieve mul Gurthik at any time for any reason. However, if we look at when Jasek considered relieving Garlath it says that "Jasak had to leave him in command unless he requested relief or openly violated regulations or the articles of war" (HG Chapter 7). The High Commandery had no evidence of that for mul Gurthik until 50 Uther's message arrived in mid-January. And three months isn't enough time for them to get a replacement forward.

As for the Sharonan commanders they took over as soon as their units were close enough for them to exercise effect control. The Sharonan's voices made that over the last water gap instead of in Traisum but they still traveled with their units and weren't sent ahead. Which is what you are saying the Arcanans should have done.

Nicholas
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Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:37 pm

Howard T. Map-addict
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Posts: 1391
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:47 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Yes, George, Don's and my point is that the Arcanans have two
(2) organizations, the Army HQ and the civilian Ministry.
Textev shows them to be rivals,
often operating at cross-purposes.

Mul Gurthak is using this to his, and the Shikara's, advantage.
He did report promptly, but to the Ministry of Exploration.
Now the Ministry might try to protect him from attempts by
the High Commandery to remove him as Governor.
The newly arrived general (when he arrives, we don't know that
he hasn't by End Of Book) will rightfully assume command of
the AEF, but Governor mul Girthak might argue to hold his
civilian position, from which he can continue his plots and
his interferences, and also spy on the Andaran generals.

HTM

phillies wrote:
n7axw wrote:It would seem to me that mul Gurthak is wearing two hats. One is his civilian hat as Governor of the sector. The other is is military one as a commander of 2000. That represents two chains of command. He failed to report to the commandery which would be a reason for relieving him of command. Whether or not a courts martial is called for would depend on the discovery of facts and the regs. But the commandery doesn't need to provide justification for reassigning him.

Don

-


" But the commandery doesn't need to provide justification for reassigning him." Having read the series, I do not believe we have adequate information as to how they run their organization to justify this assertion. You could be right, but perhaps textev is needed.
Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by brnicholas   » Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:27 pm

brnicholas
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:40 pm

I agree that it was at least theoretically possible for the High Commandary to send an officer forward to take control. We don't know how that would mesh with Army Regulations, or Arcanan politics. So how practically possible it was remains unknown.

As for your point about a senior officer in command of a larger unit coming forward and taking over. I agree that is how it will work. However, that senior officer can only do that by moving with his unit. He can't take over on that basis if the lead elements of his unit are 50,000 miles behind him. While 3 months might be enough time to get a small party for Portalis to the front. I doubt 9 is sufficient to get a division from Portalis to the front.

Also, where do you get that it only took Jasak's party three months to reach Portalis. We don't have dates in the first two books, and the way you and I analyze things DW is likely to regret giving us dates in this one, but my definite impression was that first contact happened in high summer, not fall and that Jasek and company left for Portalis within a week or so of first contact. I estimate they left sometime in August (maybe July) and they didn't arrive until January 9th. That makes the trip more then four months.

I hope you are enjoying these discussions. We share an obsession with the details of this series which is why I end up responding to you so often.

Thanks,
Nicholas



Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Indeed, br, you and phillies might be correct with your
suggestions that Army Regulations control whether and how
an officer might be removed from the unit he commands.

A senior officer might still say "in this Crisis, I need for
*that* officer to perform *that* task, even though it would
normally be the job of the Unit C/O.

But if bigger units, commanded by higher-ranking officers,
reach the Front, then the highest-ranked officer will command
all units present, even though he does not replace the C/O
of any of those units with a different officer.

And three months was enough time for Jasak's party to reach
Portalis. It would have been at least enough time for a
general and his staff to get to Fort Talon from Portalis.
And then R2H continues on until Jasak's Court-Martial verdict
is announced, three more months later. Had re-enforcements
left Portalis two days after Jasak arrived, they would have
reached HG Lines in time to help defend them from the Third
Dragoon Division. That didn't happen.

Regarding your last point, mul Girthak is commanding (or
supervising, or occasionally intervening with) the Arcanan
Expeditionary Force from Fort Talon, two Universes and some
six thousand miles from HG, and much further than that from
the Front, using hummers.

HTM

Top
Re: Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD
Post by n7axw   » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:33 pm

n7axw
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Posts: 4427
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Location: Viborg, SD

brnicholas wrote:I agree that it was at least theoretically possible for the High Commandary to send an officer forward to take control. We don't know how that would mesh with Army Regulations, or Arcanan politics. So how practically possible it was remains unknown.

As for your point about a senior officer in command of a larger unit coming forward and taking over. I agree that is how it will work. However, that senior officer can only do that by moving with his unit. He can't take over on that basis if the lead elements of his unit are 50,000 miles behind him. While 3 months might be enough time to get a small party for Portalis to the front. I doubt 9 is sufficient to get a division from Portalis to the front.

Also, where do you get that it only took Jasak's party three months to reach Portalis. We don't have dates in the first two books, and the way you and I analyze things DW is likely to regret giving us dates in this one, but my definite impression was that first contact happened in high summer, not fall and that Jasek and company left for Portalis within a week or so of first contact. I estimate they left sometime in August (maybe July) and they didn't arrive until January 9th. That makes the trip more then four months.

I hope you are enjoying these discussions. We share an obsession with the details of this series which is why I end up responding to you so often.

Thanks,
Nicholas





I would find it highly unlikely that should the commandery find need to do so, that they couldn't change out the commander on the spot. There could well be political consequences, but my wager would be that the authority for doing that would be there.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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