Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

One thing about the marriage that confuses me

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:45 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5883
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Nicholas, your posts are a pleasure in the dry months between books. I agree with almost everything you post.

The only difference between Janki marrying Chava's daughter and Andrin marrying Chava's son is profound. Chava's sons were encouraged by their father to .....aggresively compete...with each other. His daughters were not so encouraged so the assumption was that a strong husband could manage them. The same could not be said about the sons.

Janki was not condemned in a marriage to one of Chava's daughters as Andrin would have been in a marriage to one of Chava's sons.
Top
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:54 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Those guys really had nasty reps. Later in the book we learn that the women they left in their wake needed healers and counseling.

For what it's worth, virtually every time the subject of Chava's sons comes up, the concern is that it is a death sentence for Andrin or perhaps worse. Further, what we have from Chava's side implies that they were looking forward to making that fear a reality.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:56 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

PeterZ wrote:Nicholas, your posts are a pleasure in the dry months between books. I agree with almost everything you post.

The only difference between Janki marrying Chava's daughter and Andrin marrying Chava's son is profound. Chava's sons were encouraged by their father to .....aggresively compete...with each other. His daughters were not so encouraged so the assumption was that a strong husband could manage them. The same could not be said about the sons.

Janki was not condemned in a marriage to one of Chava's daughters as Andrin would have been in a marriage to one of Chava's sons.


Wine laced with arsnic, maybe?

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:43 am

brnicholas
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:40 pm

n7axw wrote:Those guys really had nasty reps. Later in the book we learn that the women they left in their wake needed healers and counseling.

For what it's worth, virtually every time the subject of Chava's sons comes up, the concern is that it is a death sentence for Andrin or perhaps worse. Further, what we have from Chava's side implies that they were looking forward to making that fear a reality.

Don

-


Everything you have said is true but that brings us back to what has confused me and others about the idea that "it is a death sentence for Andrin or perhaps worse." Why does the heir's spouse (regardless of gender) have this much power over the heir?

My sense of what the two most probable outcomes of the marriage ought to be (if it had happened) is below. And if these aren't the two most probable outcomes then there is something going on in Sharonan culture that is really really important and really really sick and I really really want to know what it is.

Most likely outcome. By carefully examining Chava's sons Zindel finds one who is susceptible to either bribes or threats and by applying the appropriate motivation gets him to treat Andrin with a basic decency. Please note in this regard that the scenes in HG set on IMS Windtreader revealed clearly that both the guards and the staff are devoted to Andrin. They are surely has horrified by the idea of this marriage as everyone else and would take their horror out on her husband if he isn't seen to be treating her right. They are so devoted that I think Zindel would have trouble getting them to not drop boiling hot food in Chava's son's lap if Zindel wanted to prevent it. If Zindel is encouraging them to assault the prince, his life is going to be miserable. Most probably one of Chava's sons would rather make nice then put up with that. And if you think he can avoid it by bringing his own servants, I say that if the treaty requires that the Zindel is a complete idiot since he knows what Chava is like, and Zindel doesn't come across as that stupid anywhere else (except maybe in not taking the possibility of Janaki's death into account in negotiating the treaty).

The second most likely outcome if the prince can't be convinced to be nice by bribes or threats is that Zindel physically prevents him from hurting Andrin. This means Andrin's guards are always with her when she is in the same wing of the palace with Chava's son. Yes, I mean that when the marriage is consummated and every time after that they must permit him to rape her there are two Imperial guards standing next to the bed prepared to pull him off her and kick him in the nuts if he does anything more then what is required to impregnate her. They will also doubtless be very rough at physically restraining him if he is stupid enough to touch her in any other situation. In addition, once she is pregnant (which God willing would happen quickly) he will be banned from her bed until the child is 18 months old. There is no reason why they need to let him keep raping her after that.

If you want to tell me that denying him his rights as a husband (or having the imperial guards assault him) is illegal I expect you are right. But she is a Calirath and heir to the throne, what recourse do Chava and his son have? They can go to the courts, but how are the courts going to enforce such an order when the Imperial Guard will be perfectly willing to kill anyone who tries. They could go to parliament arguing Zindel and Andrin have broken the treaty, but between Zindel's friends and Chava's enemies there ought to be a really solid majority in parliament happy to tell them that Andrin is pregnant by your son, the treaty is fulfilled. And to add laughing that, the fact that he wasn't man enough to please her isn't our problem. Chava could threaten civil war, but protecting Andrin's sanity is something worth calling that bluff over (or having the war over, if Chava can and will start a civil war over a pregnant Andrin refusing his son sex then a civil war is inevitable anyway they might as well have it over this).

Is this going to be miserable for her, absolutely, especially since the Calirath's appear to have modern ideas of privacy instead of those held in Louis XIV's court, but she has access to the best counselors and healers on the planet (and my read is that Sharonan healers are best at healing psychological and emotional trauma) I expect she would survive both physically and psychologically.

I would add one other question, if the power dynamics necessary to implement the protections for Andrin I proposed above are not in place, how do people expect Andrin to raise her children with Calirath ethical standards and eventually to run the Empire? If they didn't expect both those things I would have expected a mass objection to the amendment of the treaty to read "prince" rather then "princess" from the people who fear Chava (and there seems to be a lot of those).

I have thought quite a bit about it and unless there is something huge about Sharona that we haven't heard yet I don't think Andrin's destruction was a likely consequence of the marriage (although I would not rule it out especially if she failed to get pregnant quickly).

Nicholas

PS - Peter, thank you for the high praise you gave my posts.
Top
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:57 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5883
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Nicholas,

Have you read the RTH or are your analyses based on the first two books?
Top
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by Louis R   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:39 am

Louis R
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:25 pm

br: Am I correct in deducing that you haven't read the whole book yet?

Unless Himself or Joelle breaks down and tosses us an essay on the cultural matrix that they used as their basis, all we really have to go on are inferences being made from the text - when I say it's clear in the textev, I'm speaking of character reactions to the situation, not infodumps on Sharonan culture[s]. A lot of the clearest evidence comes from rather late in the book, when we finally get looks inside some Uromathian heads - directly for some, indirectly for others. If you want, we can lay it all out for you.

Concerning your rather sanguine assumption about the _political_ consequences of putting a choke-collar on one of Chava's sons, you might want to keep in mind that, through _3_ books now, the one person in all Sharona who has shown even the slightest inclination to tell Chava VII to go pound sand is Ronnie of Farnalia. Who, while probably Zindel's solidest ally is most definitely _not_ his most valuable - and who's been kept on a pretty short leash himself ever since.


brnicholas wrote:Everything you have said is true but that brings us back to what has confused me and others about the idea that "it is a death sentence for Andrin or perhaps worse." Why does the heir's spouse (regardless of gender) have this much power over the heir?

My sense of what the two most probable outcomes of the marriage ought to be (if it had happened) is below. And if these aren't the two most probable outcomes then there is something going on in Sharonan culture that is really really important and really really sick and I really really want to know what it is.

Most likely outcome. By carefully examining Chava's sons Zindel finds one who is susceptible to either bribes or threats and by applying the appropriate motivation gets him to treat Andrin with a basic decency. Please note in this regard that the scenes in HG set on IMS Windtreader revealed clearly that both the guards and the staff are devoted to Andrin. They are surely has horrified by the idea of this marriage as everyone else and would take their horror out on her husband if he isn't seen to be treating her right. They are so devoted that I think Zindel would have trouble getting them to not drop boiling hot food in Chava's son's lap if Zindel wanted to prevent it. If Zindel is encouraging them to assault the prince, his life is going to be miserable. Most probably one of Chava's sons would rather make nice then put up with that. And if you think he can avoid it by bringing his own servants, I say that if the treaty requires that the Zindel is a complete idiot since he knows what Chava is like, and Zindel doesn't come across as that stupid anywhere else (except maybe in not taking the possibility of Janaki's death into account in negotiating the treaty).

The second most likely outcome if the prince can't be convinced to be nice by bribes or threats is that Zindel physically prevents him from hurting Andrin. This means Andrin's guards are always with her when she is in the same wing of the palace with Chava's son. Yes, I mean that when the marriage is consummated and every time after that they must permit him to rape her there are two Imperial guards standing next to the bed prepared to pull him off her and kick him in the nuts if he does anything more then what is required to impregnate her. They will also doubtless be very rough at physically restraining him if he is stupid enough to touch her in any other situation. In addition, once she is pregnant (which God willing would happen quickly) he will be banned from her bed until the child is 18 months old. There is no reason why they need to let him keep raping her after that.

If you want to tell me that denying him his rights as a husband (or having the imperial guards assault him) is illegal I expect you are right. But she is a Calirath and heir to the throne, what recourse do Chava and his son have? They can go to the courts, but how are the courts going to enforce such an order when the Imperial Guard will be perfectly willing to kill anyone who tries. They could go to parliament arguing Zindel and Andrin have broken the treaty, but between Zindel's friends and Chava's enemies there ought to be a really solid majority in parliament happy to tell them that Andrin is pregnant by your son, the treaty is fulfilled. And to add laughing that, the fact that he wasn't man enough to please her isn't our problem. Chava could threaten civil war, but protecting Andrin's sanity is something worth calling that bluff over (or having the war over, if Chava can and will start a civil war over a pregnant Andrin refusing his son sex then a civil war is inevitable anyway they might as well have it over this).

Is this going to be miserable for her, absolutely, especially since the Calirath's appear to have modern ideas of privacy instead of those held in Louis XIV's court, but she has access to the best counselors and healers on the planet (and my read is that Sharonan healers are best at healing psychological and emotional trauma) I expect she would survive both physically and psychologically.

I would add one other question, if the power dynamics necessary to implement the protections for Andrin I proposed above are not in place, how do people expect Andrin to raise her children with Calirath ethical standards and eventually to run the Empire? If they didn't expect both those things I would have expected a mass objection to the amendment of the treaty to read "prince" rather then "princess" from the people who fear Chava (and there seems to be a lot of those).

I have thought quite a bit about it and unless there is something huge about Sharona that we haven't heard yet I don't think Andrin's destruction was a likely consequence of the marriage (although I would not rule it out especially if she failed to get pregnant quickly).

Nicholas

PS - Peter, thank you for the high praise you gave my posts.
Top
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:18 pm

brnicholas
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:40 pm

No I have not been able to read RTH yet. I have no objection to spoilers, so if you are willing to lay out the political details go ahead, I would much appreciate it.

As for the political consequences of forcibly restraining one of Chava's sons. If the options are really restricted to:

1) Let Chava's son rape/beat Andrin until she is completely physically and psychologically subservient to him.

2) Fight a civil war on Sharona and conquer Chava's empire by force of arms.

Then the options amount to

1) Crown Chava emperor of Sharona.
2) Fight a war with Chava.

Is that what you are saying the options amount to? If not then please enlighten me regarding what is going on here because if Chava's son is allowed to destroy Andrin psychologically he becomes de facto Emperor of Sharona as soon as something happens to Zindel. Which won't take long because if you can't keep Chava's son from beating Andrin then you can't punish Chava for trying to assassinate Zindel and if he gets to keep trying he will eventually pull it off.

Nicholas
Top
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:40 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

brnicholas wrote:No I have not been able to read RTH yet. I have no objection to spoilers, so if you are willing to lay out the political details go ahead, I would much appreciate it.

As for the political consequences of forcibly restraining one of Chava's sons. If the options are really restricted to:

1) Let Chava's son rape/beat Andrin until she is completely physically and psychologically subservient to him.

2) Fight a civil war on Sharona and conquer Chava's empire by force of arms.

Then the options amount to

1) Crown Chava emperor of Sharona.
2) Fight a war with Chava.

Is that what you are saying the options amount to? If not then please enlighten me regarding what is going on here because if Chava's son is allowed to destroy Andrin psychologically he becomes de facto Emperor of Sharona as soon as something happens to Zindel. Which won't take long because if you can't keep Chava's son from beating Andrin then you can't punish Chava for trying to assassinate Zindel and if he gets to keep trying he will eventually pull it off.

Nicholas


RTH won't necessarily provide the answer here. For one thing Andrin doesn't marry one of Chava's sons.

I will only say that it is hard to protect a woman from her husband under any circumstances. The notion of guards in the bedroom sounds surrealistic. The best way to avoid harm to Andrin is to not allow the situation to develop at all. And that is what happens in RTH.

Not having one of Chava's sons in his household is also how Zindel avoids poison in his cup.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:02 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5883
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

I'll try not to spoil the story but will try to illuminate you on some key elements.

Chava proved he has the chops to launch a successful assassination attempt on the Crown of Sharona. That suggests that all the fear regarding the lives of the Sharonan heir is valid.

What this is is not covered in the story, but one might draw conclusions based on Chava's capability. The political fall out will be different in the story as it would have been had Andrin married a son of Chava. But if Chava had launched a successful attempt while his son was married to the Sharonan Crown Princess and had fathered an heir to the Sharonan Imperial Crown, he would have stood a good chance to become regent and possibly Emperor with sufficient time and manipulation.

So bottom line is that the fear of dying in child birth is a good catchall for fear of assassination after Chava is connected to the Crown of Sharona.

brnicholas wrote:No I have not been able to read RTH yet. I have no objection to spoilers, so if you are willing to lay out the political details go ahead, I would much appreciate it.

As for the political consequences of forcibly restraining one of Chava's sons. If the options are really restricted to:

1) Let Chava's son rape/beat Andrin until she is completely physically and psychologically subservient to him.

2) Fight a civil war on Sharona and conquer Chava's empire by force of arms.

Then the options amount to

1) Crown Chava emperor of Sharona.
2) Fight a war with Chava.

Is that what you are saying the options amount to? If not then please enlighten me regarding what is going on here because if Chava's son is allowed to destroy Andrin psychologically he becomes de facto Emperor of Sharona as soon as something happens to Zindel. Which won't take long because if you can't keep Chava's son from beating Andrin then you can't punish Chava for trying to assassinate Zindel and if he gets to keep trying he will eventually pull it off.

Nicholas
Top
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:07 pm

brnicholas
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:40 pm

Peter & Don,

Thanks for your replies. If I understand you rightly, what both of your are saying is that Chava possesses sufficient capability to threaten the Calirath's and therefor having Andrin married to one of his sons makes it highly likely that Chava will be able to kill the Caliraths and take over.

OK, that makes sense but seems to put as back at Ronnie of Farnalia was right to try and reject the marriage and Zindel was wrong to accept it because while Janaki might have been safer alone in a room with one of Chava's daughters then Andrin would be alone in a room with one of Chava's sons (although knowing Chava's reputation I wouldn't want to bet anything I valued on that) all the other risks of the marriage apply either way. I don't want to think of Zindel as having misjudged the risks that badly.

As regards Don's comment about the best way to protect Andrin I agree completely, and would only add that hard isn't impossible, she already has guards around her 24 hours a day, and the only real question is if she has the power to use them to protect herself from him. As you say we don't find out for they find a much better solution.

Thanks,
Nicholas
Top

Return to Multiverse