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One thing about the marriage that confuses me

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by brnicholas   » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:56 pm

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I agree that it is extremely unlikely that Andrin's husband could abuse her. Despite that I find the first chapter of RTH very plausible.

I believe in it because one of Zindel's weaknesses as the ruler of Ternathia is that he will not acknowledge the possibility of the death of his children. He takes security precautions for them but he does no contingency planning against those precautions failing.

We see this is a number of points in the series. One of the first things we learn about Andrin is that at seventeen she has never been in a meeting of the Privy Council. She also has no knowledge of Ternathian internal politics. In other words, at the start of Hell's Gate Andrin has received no training in what she needs to know to be Empress. All the training she gets in Hell's Gate and HHNF, except the invitation to that first meeting, comes at her own initiative. Zindel has an heir, Janaki, and Zindel has taken no precautions to prepare for the possibility that Janaki will fall of his horse. I don't think that is good policy.

We don't know why Zindel invited Andrin to that first Privy Council meeting. I suspect a glimpse which Zindel refused to think about, but we do know he was having other glimpses of war. That ought to have had him worried about Janaki. Yet when deciding what to give Chava to get him to accept the Act of Unification, Zindel appears to have given no thought at all to what would happen if Janaki was killed and Andrin was heir.

We also know that after during HHNF Zindel was having glimpses that showed both Janaki involved in battle and Andrin doing things that hinted she was Empress, yet he appears to have made no plans to figure out how to make things work if Andrin ends up needing to marry one of Chava's sons or how to get out of the deal he had made.

All in all, I think Zindel was in denial about the threats to Janaki. When Janaki was actually killed it hit him like a thunderbolt, and he had to deal with making plans for the war with Arcana. By the time RTH starts I don't think he has slept more then a few hours in the last forty eight. He isn't thinking clearly so it is not at all hard for me to see him obsessing over irrational or semi-rational fears (physical abuse is probably mostly impossible, although Andrin coming out of her marriage bed with bruises seems very likely, psychological abuse would be much harder to prevent).

I suspect if Andrin hadn't gotten the out from Darcel, the Privy Council meeting in Chapter one would have been about how to minimize the harm of the marriage and Zindel would have left it feeling that the situation was bad but manageable.

Nicholas
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:21 pm

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These are excellent points, brnicholas,
and this is a strong argument!

HTM

brnicholas wrote:I agree that it is extremely unlikely that Andrin's husband could abuse her. Despite that I find the first chapter of RTH very plausible.

I believe in it because one of Zindel's weaknesses as the ruler of Ternathia is that he will not acknowledge the possibility of the death of his children. He takes security precautions for them but he does no contingency planning against those precautions failing.

We see this is a number of points in the series. One of the first things we learn about Andrin is that at seventeen she has never been in a meeting of the Privy Council. She also has no knowledge of Ternathian internal politics. In other words, at the start of Hell's Gate Andrin has received no training in what she needs to know to be Empress. All the training she gets in Hell's Gate and HHNF, except the invitation to that first meeting, comes at her own initiative. Zindel has an heir, Janaki, and Zindel has taken no precautions to prepare for the possibility that Janaki will fall of his horse. I don't think that is good policy.

We don't know why Zindel invited Andrin to that first Privy Council meeting. I suspect a glimpse which Zindel refused to think about, but we do know he was having other glimpses of war. That ought to have had him worried about Janaki. Yet when deciding what to give Chava to get him to accept the Act of Unification, Zindel appears to have given no thought at all to what would happen if Janaki was killed and Andrin was heir.

We also know that after during HHNF Zindel was having glimpses that showed both Janaki involved in battle and Andrin doing things that hinted she was Empress, yet he appears to have made no plans to figure out how to make things work if Andrin ends up needing to marry one of Chava's sons or how to get out of the deal he had made.

All in all, I think Zindel was in denial about the threats to Janaki. When Janaki was actually killed it hit him like a thunderbolt, and he had to deal with making plans for the war with Arcana. By the time RTH starts I don't think he has slept more then a few hours in the last forty eight. He isn't thinking clearly so it is not at all hard for me to see him obsessing over irrational or semi-rational fears (physical abuse is probably mostly impossible, although Andrin coming out of her marriage bed with bruises seems very likely, psychological abuse would be much harder to prevent).

I suspect if Andrin hadn't gotten the out from Darcel, the Privy Council meeting in Chapter one would have been about how to minimize the harm of the marriage and Zindel would have left it feeling that the situation was bad but manageable.

Nicholas
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:16 pm

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brnicholas wrote:I agree that it is extremely unlikely that Andrin's husband could abuse her. Despite that I find the first chapter of RTH very plausible.

I believe in it because one of Zindel's weaknesses as the ruler of Ternathia is that he will not acknowledge the possibility of the death of his children. He takes security precautions for them but he does no contingency planning against those precautions failing.

We see this is a number of points in the series. One of the first things we learn about Andrin is that at seventeen she has never been in a meeting of the Privy Council. She also has no knowledge of Ternathian internal politics. In other words, at the start of Hell's Gate Andrin has received no training in what she needs to know to be Empress. All the training she gets in Hell's Gate and HHNF, except the invitation to that first meeting, comes at her own initiative. Zindel has an heir, Janaki, and Zindel has taken no precautions to prepare for the possibility that Janaki will fall of his horse. I don't think that is good policy.

We don't know why Zindel invited Andrin to that first Privy Council meeting. I suspect a glimpse which Zindel refused to think about, but we do know he was having other glimpses of war. That ought to have had him worried about Janaki. Yet when deciding what to give Chava to get him to accept the Act of Unification, Zindel appears to have given no thought at all to what would happen if Janaki was killed and Andrin was heir.

We also know that after during HHNF Zindel was having glimpses that showed both Janaki involved in battle and Andrin doing things that hinted she was Empress, yet he appears to have made no plans to figure out how to make things work if Andrin ends up needing to marry one of Chava's sons or how to get out of the deal he had made.

All in all, I think Zindel was in denial about the threats to Janaki. When Janaki was actually killed it hit him like a thunderbolt, and he had to deal with making plans for the war with Arcana. By the time RTH starts I don't think he has slept more then a few hours in the last forty eight. He isn't thinking clearly so it is not at all hard for me to see him obsessing over irrational or semi-rational fears (physical abuse is probably mostly impossible, although Andrin coming out of her marriage bed with bruises seems very likely, psychological abuse would be much harder to prevent).

I suspect if Andrin hadn't gotten the out from Darcel, the Privy Council meeting in Chapter one would have been about how to minimize the harm of the marriage and Zindel would have left it feeling that the situation was bad but manageable.

Nicholas


I don't think that Zindel or anyone else facing the prospect of Andrin's marriage to one of Chava's sons as "manageable." They were expecting her to die in childbirth. It was regarded as a sacrifice that the Caliraths woukd make for the sake of Sharona's ubification.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me-SPOILER_
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:30 am

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SPOILER
n7axw wrote:I don't think that Zindel or anyone else facing the prospect of Andrin's marriage to one of Chava's sons as "manageable." They were expecting her to die in childbirth. It was regarded as a sacrifice that the Caliraths woukd make for the sake of Sharona's ubification.

Don
-

As we saw in Andrin's dreams, she saw her baby dying if she remained in proximity to Chava and his sons. I see nothing that prevents Zindel from having similar dreams and given the strength of his Talent, I see nothing that suggests Zindel would NOT trust his dreams either. He hadn't slept prior to meeting with Andrin because dreams that awaited him depicting all the ways Andrin would die at the hands of Chava's sons.

I believe Nicholas as interpreted everything accurately with the exception that Zindel knows his daughter will die if she marries Chava's sons. He might not know it in the objective sense of a future certain to be instantiated, but he certainly knows it in a personal, subjective way that someone with a window into the potential futures awaiting all for whom he is responsible.

Zindel doesn't just fear his daughter will die. He knows it deep in his soul and he must allow it for the sake of his greater responsibility to Ternaithia and Sharona.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by Randomiser   » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:33 am

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n7axw wrote:
I don't think that Zindel or anyone else facing the prospect of Andrin's marriage to one of Chava's sons as "manageable." They were expecting her to die in childbirth. It was regarded as a sacrifice that the Caliraths woukd make for the sake of Sharona's ubification.

Don

-


Yes, Don, we get that. What we are discussing is whether those fears were rational or even credible. They all seem to be based on the assumption that Chava and his son would have everything their own way from the date of the marriage on and be allowed to dictate what happened. Over Zindel's dead body. Over Andrin's dead body (NB no Andrin, no heir from Chava's line.) Over the dead bodies of the whole Ternathian Imperial Guard. Not going to happen.

Plus the whole political situation and the whole balance of power changes after the marriage is in place, the treaty is activated and Chava has sworn oaths of fealty and allegiance to Zindel as Emperor of Sharona (it is an empire, right?) Beforehand Chava is an independent ruler who has enormous rights and may or may not join the alliance and can with relative impunity bully the smaller states around him. Afterwards he is a part of a larger entity and subject to all its laws and authorities. The little states around know that that the whole of the rest of Sharona are honour and duty bound to whup Chava if he messes with them and 'compassing the death of the heir apparent' is high treason in any empire I ever heard of. Nothing in the treaty says that Andrin has to be a baby factory and neither Zindel nor Andrin were ever going to allow that to happen.

BRNicholas makes the most plausible suggestion when he says that those fears are the outcome of the impact of war, Janaki's death and the whole political crisis which prevented Zindel from thinking logically about the fate of his "little princess"
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by Louis R   » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:14 pm

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Guys - and it's remarkable just how everybody posting on this one is, AFAICT, male - I think maybe you should take the time to discuss this one with your wives, mothers, sisters, daughters or, absent any of the above, secretaries. Main talking point for the discussion being what is it going to be like to spend the night, every night, for months, in bed with somebody whose foreplay consists of:

"Strip!"

"lie down!"

"Spread your legs!",

when you have _no_ recourse but to let him go to town on you. Well, I guess there is one alternative: have your guards strap _him_ down, lube him up nicely and go for a ride. Just how much cooperation do you expect Andrin could expect with _that_ plan? And without cooperation, the marriage is as dead politically as it always was personally or socially.

If you're not looking forward to the reaction you're going to get from the suggested sources, try cornering a gynecologist instead. [Warning: you might be better off asking your mother. At least she won't be as brutally clinical.]

Remember, for this marriage to serve any purpose whatsoever, it _must_ be consummated and it _must_ be fruitful. And the only way to accomplish either of those is to insert Tab A in Slot B. It doesn't take much effort to make that exercise pretty unpleasant for the slot, and I imagine that it wouldn't need a great deal of thought to turn it into something extremely unpleasant - thought that clearly was being devoted to the matter. There's only so much that closing your eyes and thinking of Sharona can do for you. What, exactly, is the protection the Imperial Guard provides in these conditions? Accidents are great, but you're dealing with somebody who _arranges_ accidents, not suffers them. Probably the only way to convince him will be to prove it - by which time you will have had to allow most of the damage to be done.

So far, all this completely ignores the legal landscape. Which, I note, a lot of people seem to be cheerfully willing to do, for reasons that escape me. Perhaps something to do with the authors not taking the time to lay out all the unpleasant truths? At any rate, since they _haven't_ laid out the basis of local family law, I'm going to guess: it's on a par with the rest of the socio-economic milieu they've laid out for Sharona. That actually looks far more mid-Victorian to Edwardian to me than Roaring Twenties, but no problem. On Earth, in 1928, if there was any place where marriage didn't turn man and wife into a single legal entity, it wasn't English-speaking [nor even American-speaking]. That has some pretty profound implications. You can't conspire with yourself, for example. Nor can you beat yourself up. Or rape yourself. Or even tell yourself that you're not going to get off with yourself tonight, if yourself has other ideas. There's also, when property is involved, an element of "What's mine is mine. What's yours is... mine!" Involving royalty in the mix adds an interesting set of complications, which is why royal marriage contracts tended to be treaties in all but name [and sometimes got the name, too], but largely at the political, not the personal level. An entire structure of rights and responsibilities emanated from that foundation, as, in fact, they did from the older views of marriage as a straight-forward conveyance of property rights. Set them at nought, and there's no marriage. If there's no marriage, the treaty has no force. And what, exactly do you... Should I copy and paste, or do you get the picture?

Regardless of how close I may be on particulars, one thing I think can be taken for granted: the textev is that the Busars were, with loving anticipation, looking forward to doing exactly what Zindel feared. More importantly, _everyone_else_ was looking on in horror, expecting exactly the same thing. All of them seemingly certain that the terms of the treaty require it. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Sharonans know rather more about the details than anybody around here, but "Zindel was over-reacting" has the legs of a Marine half-way through a six-day drunk.


Randomiser wrote:
n7axw wrote:
I don't think that Zindel or anyone else facing the prospect of Andrin's marriage to one of Chava's sons as "manageable." They were expecting her to die in childbirth. It was regarded as a sacrifice that the Caliraths woukd make for the sake of Sharona's ubification.

Don

-


Yes, Don, we get that. What we are discussing is whether those fears were rational or even credible. They all seem to be based on the assumption that Chava and his son would have everything their own way from the date of the marriage on and be allowed to dictate what happened. Over Zindel's dead body. Over Andrin's dead body (NB no Andrin, no heir from Chava's line.) Over the dead bodies of the whole Ternathian Imperial Guard. Not going to happen.

Plus the whole political situation and the whole balance of power changes after the marriage is in place, the treaty is activated and Chava has sworn oaths of fealty and allegiance to Zindel as Emperor of Sharona (it is an empire, right?) Beforehand Chava is an independent ruler who has enormous rights and may or may not join the alliance and can with relative impunity bully the smaller states around him. Afterwards he is a part of a larger entity and subject to all its laws and authorities. The little states around know that that the whole of the rest of Sharona are honour and duty bound to whup Chava if he messes with them and 'compassing the death of the heir apparent' is high treason in any empire I ever heard of. Nothing in the treaty says that Andrin has to be a baby factory and neither Zindel nor Andrin were ever going to allow that to happen.

BRNicholas makes the most plausible suggestion when he says that those fears are the outcome of the impact of war, Janaki's death and the whole political crisis which prevented Zindel from thinking logically about the fate of his "little princess"
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by brnicholas   » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:47 pm

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Louis,

You are right, to a point and you make a very important point. Still, I don't think Andrin's husband would be able to drive her to suicide or psychological breakdown. Would a marriage to one of Chava's sons be miserable for her, absolutely. Is the marriage to be avoided if at all possible, absolutely. Would the son be in a position to rape her every night until she got pregnant, yes, absolutely.

But she is still heir, not him, the guards answer to her, not him. As for the law, it doesn't apply to rulers in the same way it does to everyone else, especially not rulers with guards as loyal as the Calirath's have. Net result, I still think marrying one of Chava's sons would be really bad for Andrin but once Zindal sat down and really thought about it he could keep it from killing her and ensure that she was able to rule well as Empress in spite of it.

One question about your post, you say "the textev is that the Busars were, with loving anticipation, looking forward to doing exactly what Zindel feared. More importantly, _everyone_else_ was looking on in horror, expecting exactly the same thing. All of them seemingly certain that the terms of the treaty require it." Can you point that textev? Is it after the sample chapters in RTH? Because I don't see the absolute panic I would expect at the idea that one of Chava's son's would be de facto ruler of Sharona at some point in the future. And beating/raping Andrin into submission would make him de facto ruler of Sharona.

As for being a man I can't fix that. You are correct I was too caviler in my previous post. It was an overreaction to some of Zindel's thoughts which seemed to imply that Andrin's husband could get away with murdering her. She is heir not him, I find that very hard to believe and in trying to explain it away I unjustly minimized the harm the marriage would do.

Nicholas
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Re: SPOILER One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:39 pm

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Spoiler

Nicholas,

Assume Andrin married Chava's son and bore him an heir to the Crown of Sharona. Further assume that just like in Andrin's dreams Chava would try to kill her as relentlessly as her child. Death was inescapable in those dreams. The only recourse that assuaged the dreams was to run away and even then Andrin and Zindel couldn't escape the assassins. If Chava had killed Andrin and Zindel, he might have been able to use custody of Andrin's heir to appoint himself regent. If others if the Imperial family needed to die to secure the regency, then die they would.

I suspect Zindel had dreams very similar to those that Andrin had. Those dreams haunted him. Did they like Andrin's accurately foretell the future? Perhaps not but I don't doubt those dreams did haunt Zindel.

In the end if Chava could get a clean shot at both the Emperor and his heir, I don't think Zindel's and the rest if the Imperial Court's fears were groundless. Chava did get that shot and almost succeeded completely without his son as the Consort. I suspect the odds would been worse for Zindel and Andrin has Weva been consort to facilitate Chava's plan.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:28 pm

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What I keep wondering is a related subject:
How many Ternath regiments and divisions, intended for the
Arcanan Front, will be diverted to Tajvena to protect the
Calirath government against Order of Berghal rebellions and
oncoming Uromathan armies?

HTM
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by brnicholas   » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:49 pm

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Peter,

Your argument about the security implications of having Andrin married to one of Chava's sons is sound. It strikes me as very likely to be true. Yet it would be equally true if we were talking about one of Chava's daughters married to Janaki. So it is an excellent argument that Zindel screwed up in a very big way in accepting the marriage as the price of the unification.

This thread, however, has been about whether or not Zindel's thought in the first chapter of RTH is a fact or an exaggeration. Zindel looked at Andrin and thought, "she was the promise of greatness. And she would never reach it, not under one of Chava Busar’s sons. If nothing else, they would kill her in childbed, getting child after child on her." Context, and the reference to childbed, makes it clear that this thought applies to Andrin but would not have applied to Janaki. I summarize this thought as marrying one of Chava's sons is very likely to destroy Andrin either physically or psychologically.

Your argument makes that true, but since your argument also applies to Janaki it doesn't address whether the concerns and fears that motivated and are expressed in this thought are solidly based in reality. My own answer remains that while it is possible that this marriage would destroy her, in the way Zindel is thinking here, it is much more likely that she would come out of it (meaning reach the point where she has the heir and the spare and Zindel has the political capital to let her kick Chava's son out of her bedroom permanently) badly hurt but alive and able to mostly heal.

Nicholas
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