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One thing about the marriage that confuses me

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:33 pm

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brnicholas wrote:Peter & Don,

Thanks for your replies. If I understand you rightly, what both of your are saying is that Chava possesses sufficient capability to threaten the Calirath's and therefor having Andrin married to one of his sons makes it highly likely that Chava will be able to kill the Caliraths and take over.

OK, that makes sense but seems to put as back at Ronnie of Farnalia was right to try and reject the marriage and Zindel was wrong to accept it because while Janaki might have been safer alone in a room with one of Chava's daughters then Andrin would be alone in a room with one of Chava's sons (although knowing Chava's reputation I wouldn't want to bet anything I valued on that) all the other risks of the marriage apply either way. I don't want to think of Zindel as having misjudged the risks that badly.

As regards Don's comment about the best way to protect Andrin I agree completely, and would only add that hard isn't impossible, she already has guards around her 24 hours a day, and the only real question is if she has the power to use them to protect herself from him. As you say we don't find out for they find a much better solution.

Thanks,
Nicholas


The difficulty for Zindel and Andrin is how they perceive their choices. They believe that to face Arcana, Sharona must be united. To do that the Uromathian Empire must be brought in. The problem is that to accomplish that is that Andrin becomes the sacrifice the Caliraths must make as she must marry one of Chava's sons. That's how the problem is posed. They do find a way around it, but that is how the choice is presented.

I think that the choice is false myself. If Chava succeeds in destroying the Caliraths which is really the danger here, does Sharona unite around Chava's dynasty considering his reputation and that of his sons? I don't think so. Janaki might have made it work an been able to manage his household in a way that forestalls the threat, but even that is iffy. Better to keep the fox out of the henhouse altogether.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by Keith_w   » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:57 am

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n7axw wrote:
brnicholas wrote:Peter & Don,

Thanks for your replies. If I understand you rightly, what both of your are saying is that Chava possesses sufficient capability to threaten the Calirath's and therefor having Andrin married to one of his sons makes it highly likely that Chava will be able to kill the Caliraths and take over.

OK, that makes sense but seems to put as back at Ronnie of Farnalia was right to try and reject the marriage and Zindel was wrong to accept it because while Janaki might have been safer alone in a room with one of Chava's daughters then Andrin would be alone in a room with one of Chava's sons (although knowing Chava's reputation I wouldn't want to bet anything I valued on that) all the other risks of the marriage apply either way. I don't want to think of Zindel as having misjudged the risks that badly.

As regards Don's comment about the best way to protect Andrin I agree completely, and would only add that hard isn't impossible, she already has guards around her 24 hours a day, and the only real question is if she has the power to use them to protect herself from him. As you say we don't find out for they find a much better solution.

Thanks,
Nicholas


The difficulty for Zindel and Andrin is how they perceive their choices. They believe that to face Arcana, Sharona must be united. To do that the Uromathian Empire must be brought in. The problem is that to accomplish that is that Andrin becomes the sacrifice the Caliraths must make as she must marry one of Chava's sons. That's how the problem is posed. They do find a way around it, but that is how the choice is presented.

I think that the choice is false myself. If Chava succeeds in destroying the Caliraths which is really the danger here, does Sharona unite around Chava's dynasty considering his reputation and that of his sons? I don't think so. Janaki might have made it work an been able to manage his household in a way that forestalls the threat, but even that is iffy. Better to keep the fox out of the henhouse altogether.

Don

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Don, I think that one thing you are not paying sufficient attention to in that analysis, is what happens if both Zindel and Andrith are dead? The Calirath dynasty then only has Anibessa as heiress a child of very tender years. Who will stand up to Chava then? His end game might not be to take over as Emperor-Regent of the Sharonan empire to to expand the Uromathian Empire to include the rest of Sharona!
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:05 am

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Keith_w wrote:
Don, I think that one thing you are not paying sufficient attention to in that analysis, is what happens if both Zindel and Andrith are dead? The Calirath dynasty then only has Anibessa as heiress a child of very tender years. Who will stand up to Chava then? His end game might not be to take over as Emperor-Regent of the Sharonan empire to to expand the Uromathian Empire to include the rest of Sharona!


You are really restating my point only my assumption was that he is wanting to take Zindel's place sinse he tried to compete with Zindel for that position initially. Only under my assumption, the whole family is lost.

I think that if Andrin and Zindel are lost, Sharona's attempt at unity comes unglued and goes back to as it was even in the face of the threat from Arcana. The question would be what happens to Ternathia without its imperial dynasty.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:17 am

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Here is where Chava shows his shrewdness, Don.

Kill Zindel and Andrin and blame a surrogate. Chava offers to step in to avoid having Sharona fall apart in the face of ruthless Arcanan expansionism. They have already shown a degree of barbarism that has the entire Sharonan population furious. No one trusts him and he offers concessions to the various heads of state. He keeps enough Caliratihs alive so that the option of the Regency is still open even if his son does not marry into the Caliraith dynasty.

Presented with the desperate need to unify, the Sharonan heads of state WILL accept Chava under certain conditions. Conditions that Chava will accept knowing he will have time to circumvent them. The Sharonan heads of state will hope they can keep the s.o.b. under control but don't see any other way to unify Sharona.

n7axw wrote:
Keith_w wrote:
Don, I think that one thing you are not paying sufficient attention to in that analysis, is what happens if both Zindel and Andrith are dead? The Calirath dynasty then only has Anibessa as heiress a child of very tender years. Who will stand up to Chava then? His end game might not be to take over as Emperor-Regent of the Sharonan empire to to expand the Uromathian Empire to include the rest of Sharona!


You are really restating my point only my assumption was that he is wanting to take Zindel's place sinse he tried to compete with Zindel for that position initially. Only under my assumption, the whole family is lost.

I think that if Andrin and Zindel are lost, Sharona's attempt at unity comes unglued and goes back to as it was even in the face of the threat from Arcana. The question would be what happens to Ternathia without its imperial dynasty.

Don

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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:27 am

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PeterZ wrote:Here is where Chava shows his shrewdness, Don.

Kill Zindel and Andrin and blame a surrogate. Chava offers to step in to avoid having Sharona fall apart in the face of ruthless Arcanan expansionism. They have already shown a degree of barbarism that has the entire Sharonan population furious. No one trusts him and he offers concessions to the various heads of state. He keeps enough Caliratihs alive so that the option of the Regency is still open even if his son does not marry into the Caliraith dynasty.

Presented with the desperate need to unify, the Sharonan heads of state WILL accept Chava under certain conditions. Conditions that Chava will accept knowing he will have time to circumvent them. The Sharonan heads of state will hope they can keep the s.o.b. under control but don't see any other way to unify Sharona.


I see this one differently. The only thing that made the process of unification possible is that people trusted the Caliraths. Given his reputation, people will suspect that Chava arranged the Caliraths' demise whether it can be proven or not. Chava would be presumpteous to think otherwise.

I think that they should have went for an alliance rather than unification myself. Political unification was too ambitious. But that is not how the story is told.

Don

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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:32 am

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No, Don. Zindel was drafted as Emperor of Sharona because they trusted him. The heads of state met in Tajvana because they wanted to unify in the face of the Arcanan threat. The motive to unify remains and it is the structure of that unification needs to be adjusted.

n7axw wrote:
I see this one differently. The only thing that made the process of unification possible is that people trusted the Caliraths. Given his reputation, people will suspect that Chava arranged the Caliraths' demise whether it can be proven or not. Chava would be presumpteous to think otherwise.

I think that they should have went for an alliance rather than unification myself. Political unification was too ambitious. But that is not how the story is told.

Don
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:47 pm

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PeterZ wrote:No, Don. Zindel was drafted as Emperor of Sharona because they trusted him. The heads of state met in Tajvana because they wanted to unify in the face of the Arcanan threat. The motive to unify remains and it is the structure of that unification needs to be adjusted.

n7axw wrote:
I see this one differently. The only thing that made the process of unification possible is that people trusted the Caliraths. Given his reputation, people will suspect that Chava arranged the Caliraths' demise whether it can be proven or not. Chava would be presumpteous to think otherwise.

I think that they should have went for an alliance rather than unification myself. Political unification was too ambitious. But that is not how the story is told.

Don
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I am not suggesting that there wasn't motivation to unify because there was. However what made accomplishing it possible was the Caliraths' reputation as wise and just rulers just as Chava's reputation would undermine unification, probably rendering it impossible.

My thought was that it would have been wiser to start out with a military alliance because that would have been easier to agree to than nations surrendering their sovereignty. However, I would agree that at this point in the story the thing to do is try to make unification work.

Given what we know about Zindel at the end of RTH, it would appear that Andrin will soon be Empress. Surrounded by good advisors and good security, she should do well.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by Louis R   » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:06 pm

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SPOILER WARNING!!!





Don,

You aren't making sufficient allowance for possible certitude on the part of the Caliraths, father and daughter both, that sacrificing Andrin _would_ ensure the success of the unification. This is an extremely complex and powerful precognitative Talent that seems to have been working overtime since the beginning of book 1 - and we have been treated only to a few fragments of what it's produced and how it's influenced decisions and actions. You also aren't allowing for what lies at the heart of the Calirath dynasty's trustworthiness. Zindel has no choice but to pursue the best option for the people he rules, regardless of personal price - and Andrin by now knows of that burden and has elected to take it up in turn. If this is the way that's going to work, they're not going to turn away from it because they can't see a way around the misery it entails.

From what we can see at the end of the book, they _are_ on the right course, too. Water's kind of choppy, to be sure, but it really is looking like things will work out in the end. Which is not to say that Chava doesn't get at least one more kick at the can, but he may have to come so far out into the open next time that he can be cut off at the knees. And, we now know, when he is cut off, the Uromathian Empire collapses into Sharona's arms. Chava's one of those agreeable chaps for whom what happens if _he_ doesn't win is irrelevant, too, so he may not even mind very much.

PeterZ wrote:No, Don. Zindel was drafted as Emperor of Sharona because they trusted him. The heads of state met in Tajvana because they wanted to unify in the face of the Arcanan threat. The motive to unify remains and it is the structure of that unification needs to be adjusted.

n7axw wrote:I see this one differently. The only thing that made the process of unification possible is that people trusted the Caliraths. Given his reputation, people will suspect that Chava arranged the Caliraths' demise whether it can be proven or not. Chava would be presumpteous to think otherwise.

I think that they should have went for an alliance rather than unification myself. Political unification was too ambitious. But that is not how the story is told.

Don
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n7axw wrote:I am not suggesting that there wasn't motivation to unify because there was. However what made accomplishing it possible was the Caliraths' reputation as wise and just rulers just as Chava's reputation would undermine unification, probably rendering it impossible.

My thought was that it would have been wiser to start out with a military alliance because that would have been easier to agree to than nations surrendering their sovereignty. However, I would agree that at this point in the story the thing to do is try to make unification work.

Given what we know about Zindel at the end of RTH, it would appear that Andrin will soon be Empress. Surrounded by good advisors and good security, she should do well.

Don
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:47 pm

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Louis R wrote:SPOILER WARNING!!!





Don,

You aren't making sufficient allowance for possible certitude on the part of the Caliraths, father and daughter both, that sacrificing Andrin _would_ ensure the success of the unification. This is an extremely complex and powerful precognitative Talent that seems to have been working overtime since the beginning of book 1 - and we have been treated only to a few fragments of what it's produced and how it's influenced decisions and actions. You also aren't allowing for what lies at the heart of the Calirath dynasty's trustworthiness. Zindel has no choice but to pursue the best option for the people he rules, regardless of personal price - and Andrin by now knows of that burden and has elected to take it up in turn. If this is the way that's going to work, they're not going to turn away from it because they can't see a way around the misery it entails.

From what we can see at the end of the book, they _are_ on the right course, too. Water's kind of choppy, to be sure, but it really is looking like things will work out in the end. Which is not to say that Chava doesn't get at least one more kick at the can, but he may have to come so far out into the open next time that he can be cut off at the knees. And, we now know, when he is cut off, the Uromathian Empire collapses into Sharona's arms. Chava's one of those agreeable chaps for whom what happens if _he_ doesn't win is irrelevant, too, so he may not even mind very much.


First of all, you could be right.

But, I'm not much of a believer in certitude. Faith, yes But certitude, no. I have never met anyone who could reliably predict the future other than intuitively guessing at narrow snatches of it and turning out to be right.

The whole notion of Zindel and Andrin sacrificing themselves to the whims of someone who is not a person who is not trustworthy, is not a person of good will, who would look forward to abusing or even killing them is completely contrary to what it means to live in a social contract with the people around us. I understand the thinking. But it is a dead end that does not serve Sharona, but only gives Chava a wedge into the Caliraths that would end in their destruction. I don't believe for a minute that a greater good would be served by that.

There are indeed times and places for sacrficing ones self for the greater good. I certainly won't deny that. The question is whether or not this situation represents one of them. I rather doubt it myself.

Don

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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by brnicholas   » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:11 pm

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I have finally been able to read RTH and I still disagree with you about the political consequences of choke chaining one of Chava's sons. The book is clear, Chava rules by fear and charisma. The charisma means he has loyalists who honor and respect him, this provides the power base on which the fear can be reliably built.

The political consequences that make telling Chava to pound sand generally a bad idea result from offending him and his loyalists. Both they and Chava recognized the marriage to Howan Fai as profound public insult to Chava and his sons. The Caliraths recognized this as well, see Chapter 14 where Andrin thinks of Chava, "he'd remember this moment--not simply as a political defeat but as a personal, unforgivable insult to his dignity--forever."

Andrin married Howan Fai anyway. Choke chaining one of Chava's sons needn't be as public and therefor would be a less significant insult. So, I still see the political consequences of choke chaining one of Chava's sons as acceptable to protect Andrin. They had a better option and they took it but I don't think this alternative was politically precluded.

NIcholas

Louis R wrote:br: Am I correct in deducing that you haven't read the whole book yet?

Unless Himself or Joelle breaks down and tosses us an essay on the cultural matrix that they used as their basis, all we really have to go on are inferences being made from the text - when I say it's clear in the textev, I'm speaking of character reactions to the situation, not infodumps on Sharonan culture[s]. A lot of the clearest evidence comes from rather late in the book, when we finally get looks inside some Uromathian heads - directly for some, indirectly for others. If you want, we can lay it all out for you.

Concerning your rather sanguine assumption about the _political_ consequences of putting a choke-collar on one of Chava's sons, you might want to keep in mind that, through _3_ books now, the one person in all Sharona who has shown even the slightest inclination to tell Chava VII to go pound sand is Ronnie of Farnalia. Who, while probably Zindel's solidest ally is most definitely _not_ his most valuable - and who's been kept on a pretty short leash himself ever since.


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