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One thing about the marriage that confuses me

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by phillies   » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:58 pm

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The whole planet made a not very rational decision...clearly, we need a unified world government...and is now living with consequences of their not very rational decision.

My impression of the not yet in print book is that the number of different national militaries, etc. involved in things is limited and thanks to logistics will stay that way. If we have N copies of the planet earth available, I can imagine N proposals to settle California or exploit the Mesabi range on a planet.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:36 am

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phillies wrote:The whole planet made a not very rational decision...clearly, we need a unified world government...and is now living with consequences of their not very rational decision.

My impression of the not yet in print book is that the number of different national militaries, etc. involved in things is limited and thanks to logistics will stay that way. If we have N copies of the planet earth available, I can imagine N proposals to settle California or exploit the Mesabi range on a planet.


I'm not convinced need for a unified world government is as irrational as you think. Yes, any major Sharonan power could provide the troops the war will require, at least in the next few years. But I don't think any of them could fund the logistics requirements of this war. While a world wide tax system doesn't necessarily require a world government doing the first without the second is going to be hard.

I also don't think the unification of Sharona is as difficult as you are thinking. There is no evidence of the type of mass militant nationalism on Sharona that we see on Earth. I have seen no evidence at all of popular opposition to the unification. Some elites and their close supporters are outraged, but everyone else seems to be in favor. The popular support appears to exist to make it work.

The big problem right now is that Zindel misjudged Chava. In the past Chava has always known the limits of his power and has preferred not to risk his position in a bid to acquire more power. Chava has not behaved like Hitler or Napoleon, neither of whom could be stopped by the threat of superior force (if he had Zendel would have been forced to go to war with him decades ago). Zindel thought that would continue and that if Chava accepted the treaty he would limit his trouble making to thinks which wouldn't cost him his head if his plans miscarried. Zindel was wrong, Chava is determined to rule this new Empire or die trying, and the problems spring from that. If Chava had been excluded things would be working out much better right now (whether they would also have worked out better later is unknown).

Nicholas
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by phillies   » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:54 pm

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brnicholas wrote:
phillies wrote:The whole planet made a not very rational decision...clearly, we need a unified world government...and is now living with consequences of their not very rational decision.

My impression of the not yet in print book is that the number of different national militaries, etc. involved in things is limited and thanks to logistics will stay that way. If we have N copies of the planet earth available, I can imagine N proposals to settle California or exploit the Mesabi range on a planet.


I'm not convinced need for a unified world government is as irrational as you think. Yes, any major Sharonan power could provide the troops the war will require, at least in the next few years. But I don't think any of them could fund the logistics requirements of this war. While a world wide tax system doesn't necessarily require a world government doing the first without the second is going to be hard.

I also don't think the unification of Sharona is as difficult as you are thinking. There is no evidence of the type of mass militant nationalism on Sharona that we see on Earth. I have seen no evidence at all of popular opposition to the unification. Some elites and their close supporters are outraged, but everyone else seems to be in favor. The popular support appears to exist to make it work.

The big problem right now is that Zindel misjudged Chava. In the past Chava has always known the limits of his power and has preferred not to risk his position in a bid to acquire more power. Chava has not behaved like Hitler or Napoleon, neither of whom could be stopped by the threat of superior force (if he had Zendel would have been forced to go to war with him decades ago). Zindel thought that would continue and that if Chava accepted the treaty he would limit his trouble making to thinks which wouldn't cost him his head if his plans miscarried. Zindel was wrong, Chava is determined to rule this new Empire or die trying, and the problems spring from that. If Chava had been excluded things would be working out much better right now (whether they would also have worked out better later is unknown).

Nicholas


The logistic construction requirements are rather mild; They are building rail lines which as a result of the way portals work have a single front end (well, a small number of front ends). For a turn of the 19th century country, that is just not a big deal. For example, 20 miles a day of rail, double line, is a million or two million counting bridges tons of steel a year, times however many portal lines are being explored, which is just not a lot by 1900 standards. They could be doing more to push industrial expansion and agriculture in distant places, but at some point Sharona has only so many people.
has only so many people to spread out.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by brnicholas   » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:21 pm

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You seem to be making my argument for me in the passage I bolded. We appear to be in agreement that the resources used in the war so far have not strained Sharonan resources enough to require a planetary government. But as you point out Sharona only has so many people and if the full resources of Sharona are needed for this war in the future (and Sharona certainly has no way to know at this point that they won't be) a planetary government will be a big help.

Forming a planetary government in the face of an unknown and quite possibly existential threat when doing so has mass popular support (as I believe the Sharonan Empire under the Caliraths does) strikes me as the logical thing to do.

As a result, I still do not understand why you described that decision as "not very rational."

Nicholas

phillies wrote:
The logistic construction requirements are rather mild; They are building rail lines which as a result of the way portals work have a single front end (well, a small number of front ends). For a turn of the 19th century country, that is just not a big deal. For example, 20 miles a day of rail, double line, is a million or two million counting bridges tons of steel a year, times however many portal lines are being explored, which is just not a lot by 1900 standards. They could be doing more to push industrial expansion and agriculture in distant places, but at some point Sharona has only so many people people to spread out.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:30 pm

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brnicholas wrote:You seem to be making my argument for me in the passage I bolded. We appear to be in agreement that the resources used in the war so far have not strained Sharonan resources enough to require a planetary government. But as you point out Sharona only has so many people and if the full resources of Sharona are needed for this war in the future (and Sharona certainly has no way to know at this point that they won't be) a planetary government will be a big help.

Forming a planetary government in the face of an unknown and quite possibly existential threat when doing so has mass popular support (as I believe the Sharonan Empire under the Caliraths does) strikes me as the logical thing to do.

As a result, I still do not understand why you described that decision as "not very rational."

Nicholas



I'm not sure irrational would be a good word, but unfortunately uniting under a world government upped an already existing tension by several degrees of magnitide by asking everone to surrender their sovereignty to a unified whole. Now a substantial minority represented by Chava is balking and dealing with that is going to require resources diverted from the war effort against Arcana.

I think that they would have been better off with a WW2 style alliance myself. At least if there was going to be a Sharona wide government, joining should have been voluntary.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:35 pm

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How would that WW2-style alliance have worked out,
1) if Russian armies had had to fight on the same front
as the British-Imperial and American armies?
2) If the Germans and Japanese had had to share a front?
3) If they *all* had had to work together?

In the actual WW2, the Brits and Americans worked together
because Roosevelt, Churchill, and their appointee Eisenhower
demanded it, and because Halifax and Dill got along well
with Marshall, who led both the US Army & Congress into it.
Besides, the Brits had fought with allies before,
and had some clues about how to do it.

The other three Great Powers each fought its own war,
and manipulated or compelled their "allies" to go along -
or else the allies refused, and stayed away from some things.

How does that apply, how could it possibly apply, to a *very*
distant war (at least forty *thousand* miles away) on a single
or double Front that at irregular intervals compresses into
Portals no more than 40 miles wide (sometimes as little as
5 miles) and otherwise is within about a hundred miles of the
direct routes between the Portals??
Each Independent Nation would do what it pleased, or as
much as it pleased as it could get away with. It would do it
with what it had or could get, or with what it chose to pay
for, or with as much of what it had as it chose to send to the
places it chose to send it. In other words Anarchy Compounded!

Is that any way fight a war?
Only if you don't care about winning it! (see Chava)

HTM

n7axw wrote:
{snip - htm}

I think that they would have been better off with a WW2 style alliance myself. At least if there was going to be a Sharona wide government, joining should have been voluntary.

Don

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Last edited by Howard T. Map-addict on Wed May 11, 2016 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by Louis R   » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:53 pm

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Joining _was_ voluntary: no one, as far as I could see, screwed a pistol into Chava's ear and marched him down to the table to sign the treaty. In fact, they had to pay him off to get his agreement, and the other leaders all knew it. And if you think for a minute that most of them didn't figure out immediately what Chava's intentions were when he demanded that he be the next Heir's grandfather, you're a bigger idiot than he was in thinking he could outscheme the whole lot of them. It could be that everyone else put too much reliance on the fact that Caliraths are notoriously difficult to assassinate, but that confidence hasn't proven completely unfounded.



n7axw wrote:
brnicholas wrote:You seem to be making my argument for me in the passage I bolded. We appear to be in agreement that the resources used in the war so far have not strained Sharonan resources enough to require a planetary government. But as you point out Sharona only has so many people and if the full resources of Sharona are needed for this war in the future (and Sharona certainly has no way to know at this point that they won't be) a planetary government will be a big help.

Forming a planetary government in the face of an unknown and quite possibly existential threat when doing so has mass popular support (as I believe the Sharonan Empire under the Caliraths does) strikes me as the logical thing to do.

As a result, I still do not understand why you described that decision as "not very rational."

Nicholas



I'm not sure irrational would be a good word, but unfortunately uniting under a world government upped an already existing tension by several degrees of magnitide by asking everone to surrender their sovereignty to a unified whole. Now a substantial minority represented by Chava is balking and dealing with that is going to require resources diverted from the war effort against Arcana.

I think that they would have been better off with a WW2 style alliance myself. At least if there was going to be a Sharona wide government, joining should have been voluntary.

Don

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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:27 pm

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Louis R wrote:Joining _was_ voluntary: no one, as far as I could see, screwed a pistol into Chava's ear and marched him down to the table to sign the treaty. In fact, they had to pay him off to get his agreement, and the other leaders all knew it. And if you think for a minute that most of them didn't figure out immediately what Chava's intentions were when he demanded that he be the next Heir's grandfather, you're a bigger idiot than he was in thinking he could outscheme the whole lot of them. It could be that everyone else put too much reliance on the fact that Caliraths are notoriously difficult to assassinate, but that confidence hasn't proven completely unfounded.



You could well be right that it was voluntary. However we are still talking about surrender of sovereignty to a unified state and all the tensions that would go with that. Playing on those tensions has been crucial to Chava's game.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by brnicholas   » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:42 pm

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Here we return again to the fundamental issue in this part of this thread. You and Phillies have repeatedly claimed that the creation of a unified state has significantly increased the tension level on Sharona. The exact word choice has varied but the claim is clear, political tensions have gone up because of the unification. Can you explain why you believe that?

I don't see any evidence for it in the books. The evidence in the text appears to me to show massive popular support for the unification. (Please note that the Seneschal accepted the Act of Unification only because the Parliament of Olthmaliz required him to do so.) The only people who I see opposing it are unethical, power hunger, schemers like Chava and the Seneschal. They would make trouble regardless of what was done.

Nicholas

n7axw wrote:You could well be right that it was voluntary. However we are still talking about surrender of sovereignty to a unified state and all the tensions that would go with that. Playing on those tensions has been crucial to Chava's game.

Don

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Re: One thing about the marriage that confuses me
Post by n7axw   » Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:59 pm

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brnicholas wrote:Here we return again to the fundamental issue in this part of this thread. You and Phillies have repeatedly claimed that the creation of a unified state has significantly increased the tension level on Sharona. The exact word choice has varied but the claim is clear, political tensions have gone up because of the unification. Can you explain why you believe that?

I don't see any evidence for it in the books. The evidence in the text appears to me to show massive popular support for the unification. (Please note that the Seneschal accepted the Act of Unification only because the Parliament of Olthmaliz required him to do so.) The only people who I see opposing it are unethical, power hunger, schemers like Chava and the Seneschal. They would make trouble regardless of what was done.

Nicholas

n7axw wrote:You could well be right that it was voluntary. However we are still talking about surrender of sovereignty to a unified state and all the tensions that would go with that. Playing on those tensions has been crucial to Chava's game.

Don

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Frankly, I am speculating rather than working from textev. Yes, the unification has strong popular support. But it only takes a significant minority opposed to it to create lots of tension. We see that over and over in our own politics. If, say, a third of the people are opposed, Chava can use that to call into question the whole idea if he doesn't succeed in taking over from the Caliraths. That becomes even more true if the Arcanan threat which provides the primary stimulus for the unification recedes.

Surrendering sovereignty is a crash and burn step that is bound to have lots of people opposed to it simply because it's change.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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