SPOILER: Road to Hell

phillies wrote:Notwithstanding minor advances...



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it would appear that Sharona is in fact badly outmatched. they are a 1900 society up against a 2015 society that appears to have far more people and resources.

I'm not worried. Arcana's magic is, in fact, a crutch that kept them out of other avenues of advancement, like steam and tech. They've lived a coddled life leaving them unprepared for any other type of war. Heard the phrase "preparing for the LAST war?"
Arcana's major military weapon, the dragons, are horribly outranged. They cannot assault any prepared Sharona defense, and cant sneak up on them either. Whats more they cant assault an UNprepared defense, as noted when Sky Sabre was blown to hell by the mobile shrapnel artillery which was totally out in the open.
Now if the Arcana position gets desperate (not likely with how much distance needs to be covered to cross the swamp portal alone), I would fully expect the city-killing nuke spells to be employed, IF the magisters can get close enough without triggering a Distance Viewer etc.
Now the only oddball is Andrin's Glimpses of "Cities on Fire." I'm still waiting for the Arcana's/Sharonan's finding ANOTHER connecting portal, on the other side where no one expected one and no one prepared for one, and one side or the other pushes a lightning strike into the heart of the home universe. Its either that, or Andrin was referring to a civil war with Chava.

I don't believe this true. Gadriel's complete shock at discovering how much better the rifle performed for her after she translated how Jathmar understands into the physics she understands suggests a couple of things. She understand that sentient thoughts influence the universes basic functions. Second that the Sharonian scientific method can be imposed in Arcana. The proof is in how the rifle works for Jathmar but not the others until Gadriel's epiphany.

Consider that 80% of Arcana is unGifted. Those folks would find the Sharonian scientific method very attractive. Should a siginifcant portion of Arcana's unGifed population adopt that mode of thought/scientific paradigm, the ability if the Gifted to manipulate magic would begin to unravel.

Arcana's development hasn't been an exercise in experimenting to define physical laws, but exoerimenting with processes that make a specific effect possible. This developed because magic can make just about anything possible. As more Arcanans adopt the first mode of thought, the fewer things become possible using magic.

That tech level is also pre-electricity with respect communications. Arcana has no broadcast capacity. Those hummers amount to pneumatic tubes with massive range. Their PCs do not connect to any sort of net. The principal advantage for Arcana seems to be how much power a few Gifted can apply to some effect. The type of effect is limited to a Gifted's imagination. So Djinn can be created to wreak havoc and cities can be destroyed with nukes. Short of that the armed forces of Arcana are outmatched.

phillies wrote:Notwithstanding minor advances...



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it would appear that Sharona is in fact badly outmatched. they are a 1900 society up against a 2015 society that appears to have far more people and resources.

The problem is Gadrial's explanation of the rifle's function was based on magic. It had only a limited connection to the rifle's actual scientific function, with her mention of arcana energy, etheric plane, and a physicallly expressed incantation by a "fire-making pin." She does get right the part that the various compounds hold latent energy.

Somehow her thought process had to affect the reality of the rifle, which now begs the question, could Jathmar or Shaylar make the rifle function properly, or will it only work for Arcanans? Can they make their magic work in Sharonian universe's (with the proper thought process behind it); or does the physics of Arcana allow thoughts and beliefs effect reality?

If thoughts and beliefs effect reality that strongly in Arcanan territory but not Sharonian, then Arcana is in serious civilization threatening trouble. Somehow I don't think the answer is that easy.

Both Jathmar and Gadriel get the rifle to work. Gadriel imposes Arcanan physics on the rifle. Jathmar reaffirms Sharonian physics on the rifle. Jasak does neither. Gadriel only managed to make it work after she understands the process enough to translate into magic.

This suggests that either Jathmar has the Gift or enough believers in Sharonian laws of physics can impose those laws on Arcana.

I know that RFC has said that the laws of physics change between Sharonan dominated universes and Arcanan universes.

But the famous question is "what does this mean?"

It is not hard to see the mentalist stuff like the talents and the gifts working that way...But Newton? Or to speak a bit more graphically, if a rock falls on your head in Arcana, do you get a headache?

If Newton still applies, then obviously the rifle will work, no magic to it. Then too, how different could the physical processes be if people from one universe could survive as guests (prisoners) in the other sides universe? Not very much, I would think...

Don

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n7axw wrote:I know that RFC has said that the laws of physics change between Sharonan dominated universes and Arcanan universes.

But the famous question is "what does this mean?"

It is not hard to see the mentalist stuff like the talents and the gifts working that way...But Newton? Or to speak a bit more graphically, if a rock falls on your head in Arcana, do you get a headache?

If Newton still applies, then obviously the rifle will work, no magic to it. Then too, how different could the physical processes be if people from one universe could survive as guests (prisoners) in the other sides universe? Not very much, I would think...

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My position is that, since Earth is essentially identical (except where modified by human action) in all universes (and most unmodified life is very similar as well), all physical constants that we can measure MUST have the same values (to more precision than we can measure) in all universes. Because there are so many chaotic factors involved and everything is tied together, there is no other way for all the Earths to be the same.

Don,

Perhaps the default laws of physics in the multiverse are the same as in our universe. Mental Talents and the magical energies operate in another dimension just as each universe is another dimension. Those psychic and magical energies touch the physical universe through thoughts or even the soul. This assumes thoughts or the soul exists in some other dimension.

So the rifle is prevented from working in Arcana because magical energies that touch and surround humanity interfere with natural chemical reactions of the gun powder. Gadriel ordered the magic about her so that the gun powder worked normally. I suspect enough people who believe Sharonian physics would also order the magical energy sufficiently to enable the natural chemical reaction of gunpowder.

That's Gadriel's fear.

Absent sentients, I suspect that these reactions would occur just as they do in our universe. It is the presence of sentients that disrupt the magical energies and the default physical laws locally.

PeterZ wrote:Don,

Perhaps the default laws of physics in the multiverse are the same as in our universe. Mental Talents and the magical energies operate in another dimension just as each universe is another dimension. Those psychic and magical energies touch the physical universe through thoughts or even the soul. This assumes thoughts or the soul exists in some other dimension.

So the rifle is prevented from working in Arcana because magical energies that touch and surround humanity interfere with natural chemical reactions of the gun powder. Gadriel ordered the magic about her so that the gun powder worked normally. I suspect enough people who believe Sharonian physics would also order the magical energy sufficiently to enable the natural chemical reaction of gunpowder.

That's Gadriel's fear.

Absent sentients, I suspect that these reactions would occur just as they do in our universe. It is the presence of sentients that disrupt the magical energies and the default physical laws locally.

At least something like this would have to be Gadriel's belief. While I'm willing to conceed that magic can and does impact the physical world in Arcana, there has to be a default for the natives of one world to survive and function in the other. Physics impacts chemistry and vice versa which means that there are a whole host of complicated factors out there that we that we are not considering. The default has to be Newton.

With all due respect to David and Joelle, I will admit the problem is mine. It's a good story and I will read it, but this stretches my suspension of disbelief a bit too far.

Don

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Alternatively, in the Sharonan universe, everyone has certain low level talents, so that the rifle actually works because it draws in part on talent, even though it appears to have normal gunpowder. When all talent is replaced with working magic, it also works. However, if you managed to expel all talent and magic, as in our universe, the weapon would not work at all.

You are saying that the physical laws can't be too different or people couldn't survive in the other's universe. The problem with that is that the fact that the rifle works differently on New Arcana depending on who is holding it implies that physical laws are not identical within one universe when there are people from two different universes in it. I see no reason to assume that everyone's body is following the same set of physical laws in processing food. If the mind is going to effect any physical laws I would expect it to be those governing how things work within a persons own body.

Nicholas

n7axw wrote:I know that RFC has said that the laws of physics change between Sharonan dominated universes and Arcanan universes.

But the famous question is "what does this mean?"

It is not hard to see the mentalist stuff like the talents and the gifts working that way...But Newton? Or to speak a bit more graphically, if a rock falls on your head in Arcana, do you get a headache?

If Newton still applies, then obviously the rifle will work, no magic to it. Then too, how different could the physical processes be if people from one universe could survive as guests (prisoners) in the other sides universe? Not very much, I would think...

Don

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