Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak
Post by bkwormlisa   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:03 pm

bkwormlisa
Commander

Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:43 pm

I've been wondering why mul Gurthak thinks he can rewrite the story of Jasak's actions in Fallen Timbers. It would certainly be possible on Earth, but it shouldn't be possible on Arcana (or on Sharona, for that matter). Truth spells/Talents could cause an enormous change to common society structures, and they're apparently routine in criminal cases (Jasak and Neshok both think about that). We don't know just how commonly used they can be on Arcana, beyond criminal trials, but even if they're used only there they could completely change how trials are done.

Jasak has specifically thought that a court-martial involves truth spells. He also believes that vos Hoven cannot get around them (which may not be true given the Council of Twelve). If Jasak is right, I don't see how anything vos Hoven says will be believed, and I don't see how they could coerce Threbuch and Sendahli into lying without it being detected.

If the Mythalans can get around truth spells, will it also work on others? Vos Hoven might be able to work some kind of spell to fool them (though what we've seen of individual direct magic is not impressive so far except for healing), but what about fooling truth spells when other speak? They have to be able to "prove" Jasak and Gadrial are lying and his (coerced) troopers and vos Hoven are telling the truth if they want any lie to stand up.

Plus, there's whatever's on the hummer reports. Those can't be recalled once sent, and I assume the initial reports of contact left Fort Wyvern days before Jasak and company arrived (since they waited several days at Fort Rychern). Those initial reports might include only "Jasak's claims", but they're still the first reports and that shapes opinions.

Mul Gurthak obviously knows far more about this subject than I do, but it just doesn't make much sense to me. Anyone have any ideas?
Top
Re: Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak
Post by Keith_w   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:56 am

Keith_w
Commodore

Posts: 936
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:10 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

bkwormlisa wrote:I've been wondering why mul Gurthak thinks he can rewrite the story of Jasak's actions in Fallen Timbers. It would certainly be possible on Earth, but it shouldn't be possible on Arcana (or on Sharona, for that matter). Truth spells/Talents could cause an enormous change to common society structures, and they're apparently routine in criminal cases (Jasak and Neshok both think about that). We don't know just how commonly used they can be on Arcana, beyond criminal trials, but even if they're used only there they could completely change how trials are done.

Jasak has specifically thought that a court-martial involves truth spells. He also believes that vos Hoven cannot get around them (which may not be true given the Council of Twelve). If Jasak is right, I don't see how anything vos Hoven says will be believed, and I don't see how they could coerce Threbuch and Sendahli into lying without it being detected.

If the Mythalans can get around truth spells, will it also work on others? Vos Hoven might be able to work some kind of spell to fool them (though what we've seen of individual direct magic is not impressive so far except for healing), but what about fooling truth spells when other speak? They have to be able to "prove" Jasak and Gadrial are lying and his (coerced) troopers and vos Hoven are telling the truth if they want any lie to stand up.

Plus, there's whatever's on the hummer reports. Those can't be recalled once sent, and I assume the initial reports of contact left Fort Wyvern days before Jasak and company arrived (since they waited several days at Fort Rychern). Those initial reports might include only "Jasak's claims", but they're still the first reports and that shapes opinions.

Mul Gurthak obviously knows far more about this subject than I do, but it just doesn't make much sense to me. Anyone have any ideas?


I think, if nothing else, it is that Jasak was in command of the group that initiated the hostilities which mul Gurthic is counting on to blacken his name. If nothing else, that he could not control his subordinate speaks badly of him.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
Top
Re: Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak
Post by bkwormlisa   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:19 am

bkwormlisa
Commander

Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:43 pm

Keith_w wrote:I think, if nothing else, it is that Jasak was in command of the group that initiated the hostilities which mul Gurthic is counting on to blacken his name. If nothing else, that he could not control his subordinate speaks badly of him.

That's certainly the best way to spin the truth, but I was thinking of this passage.
But Olderhan was out of his reach, now. Out of Mythal’s reach. It was entirely possible he would be cashiered over this business, but mul Gurthak had learned a great deal about the way the Andaran mind worked. Whatever happened to Jasak’s military career, his fellow Andarans – and the critical members of Parliament – would recognize that his performance throughout had actually been exemplary. Klian’s report already made it blindingly obvious that if Jasak’s advice had been followed, the entire portal attack would never have happened.

That might not be enough to prevent him from being cashiered, but it would certainly prevent him from being disgraced. And if Jasak left the Army, he would have to find another career worthy of Garth Showma, which meant just one thing: politics. An Andaran might actually turn a disaster like being cashiered, despite having done all the right things, into a political asset, if he were clever enough. And if Jasak Olderhan wasn’t, Thankhar Olderhan certainly was.

But what if it turned out that he hadn’t done all the right things?

Nith mul Gurthak stood very still, thinking furiously.

If future conflict with these Sharonians was avoided, it would be obvious to almost anyone that a great deal of the credit for it went to Hundred Olderhan. After all, he would be the one who’d saved the lives of the two Sharonian prisoners – made them his own shardonai – who had provided the critical insight into who and what Sharona truly was. Not to mention the prisoners who had taught Arcanan diplomats how to speak the Sharonians’ language.

But if future conflict wasn’t avoided, then young Jasak would get no credit for preventing it and still have to face the consequences of having started it. And if it turned out that it had all started out of his own incompetence or cowardice, and that he’d then falsified his report, knowing it couldn’t be challenged because every man of his company had been killed or captured by the enemy as a direct consequence of his incompetence while he himself was safe in the protection of Fort Rycharn…

It wouldn’t be easy to sell, but it wouldn’t be impossible, either. Not with the proper groundwork, and not with the elimination of so many witnesses who might have corroborated Olderhan’s version of what had happened. There were only three survivors from the company, beside vos Hoven and Olderhan himself, and if they couldn’t be suborned, there was always the possibility of securing obedience by taking hostages. That had worked often enough in the past. Or they could simply be eliminated. Klian would have to go, too, of course. But with all of them gone…

Starting the war is to disgrace Jasak (for having started it) and then all Andarans (with the torture). That's pretty clear. But mul Gurthak is specifically thinking of trying to frame Jasak with cowardice and incompetence and falsifying his reports of who started the shooting. How can he try to sell a lie while there are living witnesses that know better and truth spells to determine who is the real liar?
Top
Re: Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:08 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6228
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

The witnesses available to the Union of Arcana government are very few at the point mul Gurthak hatched his plan. He could suborn such a small number. The problem comes when the recaptured Arcanans enter into the equation. Many of them experienced the entire sequence of events.

Mul Gurthak now has a problem. He only has his hooks securely into one of Harshu's chief subordinates. Harshu has already set up Neshok to take the blame for the atrocities he tacitly condoned. 1000 Carthos is the only one with enough seniority to truly carry out the Mythalan's over arching plan. Either Neshok or Carthos can eliminate the survivors of Jasak's command but only might manage to do that and cover it up. To do that Toralk and Harshu must die along with the survivors of Jasak's command.

What I am not sure about is mul Gurthak's estimation of Sharonan military might. If he pushes Carthos to act quickly after his force rejoins Harshu's and is successful, Arcana's forces will be led by a much more junior command team. That more junior team will be fighting a foe with largely unknown capabilities who are preparing some seriously painful surprises.

If Carthos fails and the Sharonan counter offensive is successful enough to destroy of capture the AEF, does the benefit of not having the loose ends available outweigh the unfortunate realization that the Sharonan barbarians are powerful enough to take out a sizable UAA field force? Sure there is quite a bit of buffer between the current front and any sizeable Arcanan populations. Losing that territory would make the conflict more disastrous and make the cause of the war more worthy of severe scrutiny. Should that scrutiny confirm Jasak was indeed driven by cowardice and incompetence, Andarans would bear the blame for all of the misfortunes associated with the war.

Harshu and Toralk have to start considering there is a larger game afoot pretty darned quick. If they do not, they are dead. Depending on how deeply they begin suspect mul Gurthak's plans, they might begin pulling back on their own. Because if Harshu and Toralk do begin to suspect that mul Gurthak needs to blame a thorough disaster on Andarans, they might then suspect that any reinforcements will be too few and too late. Better to pull back and shorten the supply lines in an effort to mitigate having to fight with far too few resources.
Top
Re: Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:17 am

Howard T. Map-addict
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1392
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

First, mul Gurthik is an Optimist, with a capital O.
He *Expects* his plans to work.
He sets Goals, finds a way that *might* achieve them,
and then counts on that way succeeding.
He Optimistically Expected vos Hovan to subvert Jasek.

He Expects his agents to be pawns on his chessboard,
doing all that he tells them, Exactly, and no more.
He was Surprised by vos Hovan's behavior.
He was a bit confused by the loss of the negotiators.

Up to now, he has worked in the shadows.
He counts on his long-term plans having
all of the time that they require.

Now he is working in Real-time.
Actions have a success-rate that is less than 100%.
Those actions always have consequences, not always
expected, and other people react to them all.

The witnesses, he expects to suborn or murder.
Truth Spells might be distorted by stronger Spells.
They might test what a person belives to be true,
rather than objective Truth.

"How can one lie to a telepath? By believing in
something that is not true." Poul Anderson

But for all of that, my guess is that mul Gurthak has
over-reached, has been too optimistic,
and is headed for a fall.

HTM

bkwormlisa wrote:That's certainly the best way to spin the truth, but I was thinking of this passage.
But Olderhan was out of his reach, now. Out of Mythal’s reach. It was entirely possible he would be cashiered over this business, but mul Gurthak had learned a great deal about the way the Andaran mind worked. Whatever happened to Jasak’s military career, his fellow Andarans – and the critical members of Parliament – would recognize that his performance throughout had actually been exemplary. Klian’s report already made it blindingly obvious that if Jasak’s advice had been followed, the entire portal attack would never have happened.

That might not be enough to prevent him from being cashiered, but it would certainly prevent him from being disgraced. And if Jasak left the Army, he would have to find another career worthy of Garth Showma, which meant just one thing: politics. An Andaran might actually turn a disaster like being cashiered, despite having done all the right things, into a political asset, if he were clever enough. And if Jasak Olderhan wasn’t, Thankhar Olderhan certainly was.

But what if it turned out that he hadn’t done all the right things?

Nith mul Gurthak stood very still, thinking furiously.

If future conflict with these Sharonians was avoided, it would be obvious to almost anyone that a great deal of the credit for it went to Hundred Olderhan. After all, he would be the one who’d saved the lives of the two Sharonian prisoners – made them his own shardonai – who had provided the critical insight into who and what Sharona truly was. Not to mention the prisoners who had taught Arcanan diplomats how to speak the Sharonians’ language.

But if future conflict wasn’t avoided, then young Jasak would get no credit for preventing it and still have to face the consequences of having started it. And if it turned out that it had all started out of his own incompetence or cowardice, and that he’d then falsified his report, knowing it couldn’t be challenged because every man of his company had been killed or captured by the enemy as a direct consequence of his incompetence while he himself was safe in the protection of Fort Rycharn…

It wouldn’t be easy to sell, but it wouldn’t be impossible, either. Not with the proper groundwork, and not with the elimination of so many witnesses who might have corroborated Olderhan’s version of what had happened. There were only three survivors from the company, beside vos Hoven and Olderhan himself, and if they couldn’t be suborned, there was always the possibility of securing obedience by taking hostages. That had worked often enough in the past. Or they could simply be eliminated. Klian would have to go, too, of course. But with all of them gone…


Starting the war is to disgrace Jasak (for having started it) and then all Andarans (with the torture). That's pretty clear. But mul Gurthak is specifically thinking of trying to frame Jasak with cowardice and incompetence and falsifying his reports of who started the shooting. How can he try to sell a lie while there are living witnesses that know better and truth spells to determine who is the real liar?
Top
Re: Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:27 am

Howard T. Map-addict
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1392
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

About Toralk specifically:
We have seen that mul Gurthak has Plans for Harshu,
Neshok (and his man), Carthos, and Klian.
I don't recall that those Plans include Toralk.
Perhaps mul G has left Toralk out of his plans.
Toralk is just an Air Force puke after all,
and not a politician.

Besides, mul G has much to think of, very much,
and no one to do some of it for him.

And then there is Harshu's Chief of Staff.
Has mul G forgotten him?

HTM

PeterZ wrote:The witnesses available to the Union of Arcana government are very few at the point mul Gurthak hatched his plan. He could suborn such a small number. The problem comes when the recaptured Arcanans enter into the equation. Many of them experienced the entire sequence of events.

Mul Gurthak now has a problem. He only has his hooks securely into one of Harshu's chief subordinates. Harshu has already set up Neshok to take the blame for the atrocities he tacitly condoned. 1000 Carthos is the only one with enough seniority to truly carry out the Mythalan's over arching plan. Either Neshok or Carthos can eliminate the survivors of Jasak's command but only might manage to do that and cover it up. To do that Toralk and Harshu must die along with the survivors of Jasak's command.

What I am not sure about is mul Gurthak's estimation of Sharonan military might. If he pushes Carthos to act quickly after his force rejoins Harshu's and is successful, Arcana's forces will be led by a much more junior command team. That more junior team will be fighting a foe with largely unknown capabilities who are preparing some seriously painful surprises.

If Carthos fails and the Sharonan counter offensive is successful enough to destroy of capture the AEF, does the benefit of not having the loose ends available outweigh the unfortunate realization that the Sharonan barbarians are powerful enough to take out a sizable UAA field force? Sure there is quite a bit of buffer between the current front and any sizeable Arcanan populations. Losing that territory would make the conflict more disastrous and make the cause of the war more worthy of severe scrutiny. Should that scrutiny confirm Jasak was indeed driven by cowardice and incompetence, Andarans would bear the blame for all of the misfortunes associated with the war.

Harshu and Toralk have to start considering there is a larger game afoot pretty darned quick. If they do not, they are dead. Depending on how deeply they begin suspect mul Gurthak's plans, they might begin pulling back on their own. Because if Harshu and Toralk do begin to suspect that mul Gurthak needs to blame a thorough disaster on Andarans, they might then suspect that any reinforcements will be too few and too late. Better to pull back and shorten the supply lines in an effort to mitigate having to fight with far too few resources.
Top
Re: Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:28 am

Mil-tech bard
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 256
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 1:25 pm

Mul Gurthak has a series of problems starting with the fact that he does not control all the witnesses to the initial firefight and the second fight at the Hells Gate portal.

Both Commander of One Thousand Klayrman Toralk and Commander of Two Thousand Harshu will do their best to protect those witnesses from Mul Gurthak and get them back to Arcania.

Starting with the senior NCO that is already accompanying Jasak back to Arcania -- and is an eye witness to the Hells Gate Portal fight and the friendly fire death of the UAA's senior Mage -- and continuing with the likely outcome of Klayrman and Harshu not letting Mul Gurthak know who the recaptured witnesses are and what they saw.


In addition, you know darned well that Commander of 500 Alivar Neshok has his "GO To Hell files" set to spread the blame on both Commander's of Two Thousand Harshu and Mul Gurthak in the event of either his untimely death or charges under the Andaran military code of conduct.

There are far too many moving parts and independent actors for Mul Gurthak to stay ahead of the story in terms of his plotting.

In particular, Mul Gurthak has completely underestimated the Sharonan's military capabilities and their will to win.

The defeat that is looming for Arcanian forces will be a black hole career blight that will suck down everyone involved.
Top
Re: Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:58 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6228
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

I tend to agree with all of this. That's why I believe mul G has stacked the deck against the AEF beating back the initial Sharonan counter offensive. The best way to get rid of all those pesky moving parts is let the Sharonans capture them and hopefully from his POV retaliate for the atrocities they committed. They are barbarians after all. So should he hold back critical elements of resupply and reinforcements in an effort to reign in his brutally overly aggressive Andaran commander, he would likely be able to sell that back in Arcana Prime.

That just seems a prudent precaution. Especially if the Sharonans are otherwise incapable of defeating the UAA. The reinforcements could be staged at Mahritha or Hell's Gate.

Mil-tech bard wrote:Mul Gurthak has a series of problems starting with the fact that he does not control all the witnesses to the initial firefight and the second fight at the Hells Gate portal.

Both Commander of One Thousand Klayrman Toralk and Commander of Two Thousand Harshu will do their best to protect those witnesses from Mul Gurthak and get them back to Arcania.

Starting with the senior NCO that is already accompanying Jasak back to Arcania -- and is an eye witness to the Hells Gate Portal fight and the friendly fire death of the UAA's senior Mage -- and continuing with the likely outcome of Klayrman and Harshu not letting Mul Gurthak know who the recaptured witnesses are and what they saw.


In addition, you know darned well that Commander of 500 Alivar Neshok has his "GO To Hell files" set to spread the blame on both Commander's of Two Thousand Harshu and Mul Gurthak in the event of either his untimely death or charges under the Andaran military code of conduct.

There are far too many moving parts and independent actors for Mul Gurthak to stay ahead of the story in terms of his plotting.

In particular, Mul Gurthak has completely underestimated the Sharonan's military capabilities and their will to win.

The defeat that is looming for Arcanian forces will be a black hole career blight that will suck down everyone involved.
Top
Re: Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:00 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6228
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

As discussed in a later prior post, mul G has the Sharonans as a catch all eliminator of loose Andarans threads.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:About Toralk specifically:
We have seen that mul Gurthak has Plans for Harshu,
Neshok (and his man), Carthos, and Klian.
I don't recall that those Plans include Toralk.
Perhaps mul G has left Toralk out of his plans.
Toralk is just an Air Force puke after all,
and not a politician.

Besides, mul G has much to think of, very much,
and no one to do some of it for him.

And then there is Harshu's Chief of Staff.
Has mul G forgotten him?

HTM
Top
Re: Mul Gurthak trying to disgrace Jasak
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:03 am

Mil-tech bard
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 256
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 1:25 pm

This is something RFC said earlier that bears on this thread.


12 The decision to send Shaylar and Jathmar back to New Arcana rather than returning them to Sharona was not made by Jasak Olderhan. He understood the military reasons for regarding them as priceless intelligence assets, and he agreed with that assessment. However, he also knew from the very beginning what the decision of his superiors would be and that there was no way that he could possibly change that decision. By naming Shaylar and Jathmar his shardonai, however, he made it completely clear that the two of them were under the protection of his family and that they would not — could not — be abused, subjected to torture, separated, etc. Indeed, it is Jasak's hope and belief that eventually Shaylar and Jathmar will be returned to Sharona. Moreover, he does not know that the Sharonians have been told that Shaylar and Jathmar are dead. He has, in fact, no reason to even contemplate that possibility, which — as several people have pointed out (and I happen to agree) — would have been an incredibly stupid act by anyone who hoped to avoid further hostilities.



Jasak does not know that Mul Gurthak had his pet diplomats tell the Sharonans that Shaylar and Jathmar are dead.

This is something that spotlights Mul Gurthak role in events in a way Andarans and Rasanarans are going to revert to some very old pre-Arcanian Union racial stereotypes over.

Particularly with the lady Ransanaran mage deploying combat magic's to protect Shaylar and Jathmar from Mul Gurthak's creatures like Commander of 500 Neshok on the way back to Arcania.

I file all of the above under "Mul Gurthak is not as smart a secret plotter as he thinks he is ".
Top

Return to Multiverse