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Communications bottleneck

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Communications bottleneck
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:56 pm

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My dear Mapster, don't let the pique of delayed snippets sour your otherwise pleasant disposition. Our beloved author is absolutely nothing if not consistent in his KISS approach to world building. He is also deeply in love with the concept of internal consistency. These two characteristics suggest there is some simple and direct reason for or against your believed, presumed guesses.

The distinguishing factors cannot be natural or artificial. Magic after all is a natural process. One assumes magic existed before there was man to manipulate it. Whatever prevents Talents from reaching between universes would have to also effect Magic the same way or at least via the same mechanism.

The creative part of me does think that there is a God element at play. Perhaps humanity partakes of God's creative ability as well as omniscience? Arcanans can change the universe just as God can. Sharonans can know the universe as God can. That knowledge and power is limited to one universe at a time. This does not provide proof of God's existence or absence within the story, but is good as a metaphor to explain both Magic and Talents.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Light travels just fine because it is Natural.
Radios, and electrical wires, are Artificial,
so the Gates stop them.
Radio Waves are Natural, of course, so they go right
on through ... like light waves.
When Light is artificial altered, as in a Laser Beam, it
is stopped by the Gate Face, and doesn't even reflect!

Or so I believe, and guess, and presume.
I don't recall any textev on these subjects.

But "a bit of handwavium," Peter?
You're thinking too small, I ween.
We have here three whole books of handwavium, ink and
paper wavium, Dragon Naturally Speaking voicewavium,
and numerous other sorts of wavium!

Howard T. Map-addict
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Re: Communications bottleneck
Post by bkwormlisa   » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:53 pm

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The electromagnetic spectrum is broad and is stopped by different things. Our atmosphere happens to be transparent in visible and radio, but it's opaque to most other frequencies. And we can determine the chemicals in a given atmosphere by looking at the frequencies that are blocked by it, which says something about how many variables there can be. We can also determine something about the mineral content of the ground (mostly the surface) by bouncing something off them and seeing what comes back and what was absorbed. So the fact that light travels through the portals means nothing when discussing whether a totally different area of the spectrum would go through it. We don't have nearly enough information to say if radio would.

And lasers are simply light of one frequency, not of many. I can't imagine how a portal would let light in when it comes in multiple frequencies but not allow the exact same frequencies through when they come alone. Not without being specifically designed to do that. And why wouldn't it reflect? If it didn't, it would have to be absorbed, so unless the portal is powered by something it absorbs, the energy has to go somewhere. Plus, portals mess with Talents like Plotting if they're trying to work too close, so they must have some effect at a distance.

I would personally think that since he wants to throw us (Earth, at whatever level) into it, he wouldn't make it too easy for us, but that's a total guess, and my track record on guessing what MWW will do isn't any better than anyone else's.

Anyway, we could build a radio tower on either side and a cable carrying the information between, or even a tower right smack in the middle with transmitter and receivers on both sides, connected by said cable. So could the Sharonians, if they ever invent radio. So whether or not radio can pass through it may mean something for the infrastructure needed, but it could be gotten around without much difficulty. Much more easily than a Voicenet can be manipulated.
Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Light travels just fine because it is Natural.
Radios, and electrical wires, are Artificial,
so the Gates stop them.
Radio Waves are Natural, of course, so they go right
on through ... like light waves.
When Light is artificial altered, as in a Laser Beam, it
is stopped by the Gate Face, and doesn't even reflect!

Or so I believe, and guess, and presume.
I don't recall any textev on these subjects.

But "a bit of handwavium," Peter?
You're thinking too small, I ween.
We have here three whole books of handwavium, ink and
paper wavium, Dragon Naturally Speaking voicewavium,
and numerous other sorts of wavium!

Howard T. Map-addict
Top
Re: Communications bottleneck
Post by n7axw   » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:47 pm

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Light travels just fine because it is Natural.
Radios, and electrical wires, are Artificial,
so the Gates stop them.
Radio Waves are Natural, of course, so they go right
on through ... like light waves.
When Light is artificial altered, as in a Laser Beam, it
is stopped by the Gate Face, and doesn't even reflect!



O, come on, Howard, electricity may be artificially generated, but it operates on the basis of natural law that can be analysed and explained scientifically. There is no reason to believe that the magnetic waves created by generating electricity ---the fundament of radio --- wouldn't travel through a portal just fine.

What is not making it through the portals are what I am going to refer to as mentalist phenomena that reside in people such as the Sharonian talents or the Arcanan gits of magic.

As for radio waves, there should be no more difficulty in their passage than there was for those artillery shells that the Sharonians used to surprise that Arcanan company on the portal toward the end of HG.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Communications bottleneck
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:57 am

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Too late, but ty 4 trying.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:My dear Mapster, don't let the pique of delayed snippets sour your otherwise pleasant disposition.
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Re: Communications bottleneck
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:01 am

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Weber & Evans played games with Natural Law here.

Seems the Three Kinds Of Humanity they invented so far
play games too.

3? Sharonans, Arcanans, Gate-creators.

It's a pure guess whether natural forces which have
been modified by People will pass through Portals.
*Or*, will pass through *all* Portals. :twisted:

HTM

n7axw wrote:
O, come on, Howard, electricity may be artificially generated, but it operates on the basis of natural law that can be analysed and explained scientifically. There is no reason to believe that the magnetic waves created by generating electricity ---the fundament of radio --- wouldn't travel through a portal just fine.

What is not making it through the portals are what I am going to refer to as mentalist phenomena that reside in people such as the Sharonian talents or the Arcanan gits of magic.

As for radio waves, there should be no more difficulty in their passage than there was for those artillery shells that the Sharonians used to surprise that Arcanan company on the portal toward the end of HG.

Don
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Re: Communications bottleneck
Post by dwileye13   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:35 am

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tonyz wrote:I don't see any indication that the inner worlds have any limits on Voices. Yes, the line outwards from Traisum to Hell's Gate is short on Voices because it's so recently developed and has such a low population density that they don't have enough warm bodies out there. But we're specifically told that the inner rings have plenty of backups for redundancy.

And while you are quite right that if they could manufacture radios they could cover lots of stuff easily, I see no evidence that they've yet even thought of the idea of using electricity to transmit messages, either with or without wires... and with the Voices, right now, they have no reason to even try and think along those lines.


Both sides are on the verge of discovering that that their universe's talents will fade as they get farther from the Home Universe. That more than anything else will fuel the need for options. Mechanical/Electrical will win that particular conflict. Arcanians loosing their magic is terminal
I am not young enough to know everything!
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Re: Communications bottleneck
Post by phillies   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:31 am

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We do not see material objects being pulverized as they walk through portals, which proves that electrical fields pass through portals just fine, because otherwise molecular bonding would not work between the fingers and the part of the arm on the other side of the portal.
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Re: Communications bottleneck-Spoiler
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:52 am

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-Spoiler-

I don't believe this is true. As I recall whatever society inhabits a universe "sets" it to their "polarity"(?) or physics. RFC also mentioned that polarities become more fixed over time and can be reversed.

All this suggests that there is some interaction between the universe and the human/sentient inhabitants beyond the Magic/Talent element. This also suggests to me that there is not a human Gate creator but the Gates are a function of sentient activity.

dwileye13 wrote:
Both sides are on the verge of discovering that that their universe's talents will fade as they get farther from the Home Universe. That more than anything else will fuel the need for options. Mechanical/Electrical will win that particular conflict. Arcanians loosing their magic is terminal
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Re: Communications bottleneck-Spoiler
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:23 pm

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PeterZ wrote:-Spoiler-

I don't believe this is true. As I recall whatever society inhabits a universe "sets" it to their "polarity"(?) or physics. RFC also mentioned that polarities become more fixed over time and can be reversed.

All this suggests that there is some interaction between the universe and the human/sentient inhabitants beyond the Magic/Talent element. This also suggests to me that there is not a human Gate creator but the Gates are a function of sentient activity.
I do have a vague recollection that RFC might, at one point, have mentioned that the Sharonan and Arcanan universes both have somewhat different physics from our. Specifically I seem to remember him saying that their speed of light really was infinite, and that they didn't have relativity.

If that recollection is correct I've no idea what impact it might have on radio, but it would definitely screw up GPS :D
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Re: Communications bottleneck
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:07 pm

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My own bias is going to be that except in ways that we are specifically informed by textev, the physics remains the same from universe to universe. Unless we make that assumption, there is really no way at all to speculate in a reasoned way because what we are dealing with would simply be Alice in wonderland.

The only thing we've seen so far is that the mentalist gifts such as the dragons weapons or the Voices can't be projected through portals from one universe to another. They seem to work within any given universe just fine, although we do have hints that the further away one gets from the originating unuverse, the less effective both talents and gifts are.

So, until we learn to the contrary from authors post or textev in the books, bring on radio! :D

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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