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All the idiots on the Arcanan side?

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by boballab   » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:25 pm

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On the whole "who shot first" question keep this in mind, the Arcanan (Osmuna) was a trained soldier and would respond to certain action in predictable ways. One of those actions was taken by the Sharonan civilian (Falsan)...releasing his safety and starting to point his weapon at Osmuna:
Here we both stand, armed, and scared as shit, he thought. All we need is for one of us to fuck up. And that damned crossbow of his is cocked and ready to go. I know I don't intend to do anything stupid . . . but what about him?

His thumb moved, very carefully disengaging the safety on his Model 9 rifle.

Osmuna saw the not-arbalest move slowly, stealthily, and the level of adrenaline flooding his system rocketed upward. Doctrine was clear on this point. In the inconceivable event that another human civilization was encountered, contact was to be made peacefully, if at all possible. But the overriding responsibility was to ensure that news of the encounter got home. Which meant the people who had that news had to be alive—and free—to deliver it.

And if Osmuna intended to stay alive and uncaptured, it probably wouldn't be a very good idea to let this stranger point an unknown weapon at him.

He moved his left hand to the forearm of his arbalest and tipped it upward slightly.


That was the act that set everything in motion, a simple stupid mistake that triggered a set chain of events that you can logically follow: Sharonan scared releases safety and moves muzzle towards Arcanan; Arcanan see's that and reciprocates, Sharonan sees the crossbow starting to point towards himself shoulders rifle; Arcanan sees the rifle being shouldered aims crossbow...and then they both fire.
............................................................................

"I'd like to think that someone in the Navy somewhere has at least the IQ of a gerbil!" Rear Admiral Rozsak on the officers in the SLN
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:38 am

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Osmuna ignored that there were other Arcanans
nearby who could deliver the First Contact news,
so that he did not need to "remain alive
and uncaptured" to do it himself.

What he needed to do was inform his fellows so that,
if he were lost, then he would not be lost in vain.
He could have done so simply by shouting,
by calling out in a loud voice that they would hear.

And the Call-out need not even be directed back to
them! A "Hello! Who are you?" shouted towards the Other
Person would have been heard by his fellows, who could
then have joined him. Meanwhile the Other would have
seen that Osmuna was talking to him, trying to make
Peaceful First Contact. And of course Osmuna ought to
have *put his weapon down* so it would not distract
from the First Contact Call.

Instead Osmuna valued his own life over his Mission.
He failed in both: he damaged the First Contact Mission,
which said damage led to its failure,
and he also failed to save his own life.

I should also find something that Falsan did wrong.
Instead of aiming at the Other,
he should first have taken cover.
Then he might have thought about Step Two.

His problem, as a Sharonan, was that Sharona did not
have a First Contact Plan (as DW keeps telling us).

Osmuna's problem was that he placed protecting his own
life above achieving Arcana's FCP. Soldiers are sent
out to risk their own lives for the sake of a Mission.

HTM
(No, I have never been a soldier. I did work in the
Veterans' Administration for 18 years.)

boballab wrote:On the whole "who shot first" question keep this in mind, the Arcanan (Osmuna) was a trained soldier and would respond to certain action in predictable ways. One of those actions was taken by the Sharonan civilian (Falsan)...releasing his safety and starting to point his weapon at Osmuna:
Here we both stand, armed, and scared as shit, he thought. All we need is for one of us to fuck up. And that damned crossbow of his is cocked and ready to go. I know I don't intend to do anything stupid . . . but what about him?

His thumb moved, very carefully disengaging the safety on his Model 9 rifle.

Osmuna saw the not-arbalest move slowly, stealthily, and the level of adrenaline flooding his system rocketed upward. Doctrine was clear on this point. In the inconceivable event that another human civilization was encountered, contact was to be made peacefully, if at all possible. But the overriding responsibility was to ensure that news of the encounter got home. Which meant the people who had that news had to be alive—and free—to deliver it.

And if Osmuna intended to stay alive and uncaptured, it probably wouldn't be a very good idea to let this stranger point an unknown weapon at him.

He moved his left hand to the forearm of his arbalest and tipped it upward slightly.


That was the act that set everything in motion, a simple stupid mistake that triggered a set chain of events that you can logically follow: Sharonan scared releases safety and moves muzzle towards Arcanan; Arcanan see's that and reciprocates, Sharonan sees the crossbow starting to point towards himself shoulders rifle; Arcanan sees the rifle being shouldered aims crossbow...and then they both fire.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Keith_w   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:52 pm

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Karthak wrote:There may be perfectly logical reasons for the Caliraths being so saintly, but that doesn't stop it from being aggravating.

Reached the end of the second book, and all atrocities are still Arcanan-exclusive. I hope this changes in the third book. Both sides are morally outraged at the other, but only one side (the side I find more boring, to boot) has legitimate justifications for the outrage. I also hope we see a lot more of Arcana in the third book; we've been practically drowned in coverage of the Sharonan leadership, but just about nothing from the Arcanan side.

I'm not complaining so much because I hate the series; to the contrary I devoured both books in just a few days, and loved a lot of it. It's just that that makes the parts that stick in my craw even more irritating. :D

Please remember that until the final battle of the 2nd book at Fort Salby, the Arcanans had it all their own way - they sneak up on a Sharonian outpost and take it. Sharonians have had no opportunity to commit the types of atrocities you seem to desire.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Karthak   » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:35 am

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Keith_w wrote:Please remember that until the final battle of the 2nd book at Fort Salby, the Arcanans had it all their own way - they sneak up on a Sharonian outpost and take it. Sharonians have had no opportunity to commit the types of atrocities you seem to desire.

I don't particularly "desire" to see Sharonians commit war crimes, it's just that it feels so totally one-sided on the morality front at the moment. When I started the series, I was under the impression that it was about two sides who were both equally at fault for things spiralling out of control, but that hasn't been the case so far.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:27 am

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Karthak wrote:
Keith_w wrote:Please remember that until the final battle of the 2nd book at Fort Salby, the Arcanans had it all their own way - they sneak up on a Sharonian outpost and take it. Sharonians have had no opportunity to commit the types of atrocities you seem to desire.

I don't particularly "desire" to see Sharonians commit war crimes, it's just that it feels so totally one-sided on the morality front at the moment. When I started the series, I was under the impression that it was about two sides who were both equally at fault for things spiralling out of control, but that hasn't been the case so far.


Each side is susceptible to different sorts of over reactions. As it stands peace might yet break out. Once Arcana finds out about the conduct of their expeditionary force, Ransar and old school Andarans will be appalled. They would feel obligated to own up to the atrocities committed. That group would sue for peace, offer reparations, those that committed the crimes and all the universes back to Hell's Gate. That ends the war.

The Sharonan's will have their turn to overreact. The memories of boy who experienced as much of the death of his teacher as is possible for a voice and saw the death of his own father. The boy was sent away knowing the killers wanted to find the boy-Voice. How will that sit with the Talented of Sharona? To experience the heart shattering grief and guilt of a child who has seen more violent and brutal death than most adults all the while knowing those who died did so protecting him, personally. Overreaction is a massive understatement for what anyone that experiences that even second hand will be willing to condone. While the Arcanans are seeing uncivilized barbarians, Sharonans will be seeing inhuman monsters just like the beasts they ride.

So, just like medics were targets on the battlefield for snipers, healing magistrons become the target of choice for Sharonans both during and after combat. Andarans might understand that as both a practical and appropriate reprisal for the Arcanan policy of killing Voices. Ransarans and Mythalians would not. Depending on how vicious the execution of that policy and any unsanctioned individually motivated retaliation on the front line troopers' part, the war will then truly be unstoppable.

I would note that any prisoner will probably be interviewed with a voice and truth reader. If they are found to have committed what Sharona considers war crimes, they die.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:09 pm

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Peter Z,

As for this --


So, just like medics were targets on the battlefield for snipers, healing magistrons become the target of choice for Sharonans both during and after combat. Andarans might understand that as both a practical and appropriate reprisal for the Arcanan policy of killing Voices. Ransarans and Mythalians would not. Depending on how vicious the execution of that policy and any unsanctioned individually motivated retaliation on the front line troopers' part, the war will then truly be unstoppable



Whether healing magistrons join the Sharonan "Kill them in retaliation list" with magically gifted individuals Dragon pilots, Gryphon handlers and hummer handlers depends a great deal on whether and how many Sharonan torture victims survive to be recaptured.


The Magic 8-ball says "Future Uncertain, Ask Again After Snippets."
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:16 pm

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Like Button - HTM but when are snippets?


Mil-tech bard wrote:
The Magic 8-ball says "Future Uncertain, Ask Again After Snippets."
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:51 am

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Mil-tech bard wrote:Whether healing magistrons join the Sharonan "Kill them in retaliation list" with magically gifted individuals Dragon pilots, Gryphon handlers and hummer handlers depends a great deal on whether and how many Sharonan torture victims survive to be recaptured.


The Magic 8-ball says "Future Uncertain, Ask Again After Snippets."
Might also depend on how quickly the Sharonan's realize just how much more capable those magistrons are at healing battlefield injuries.

Why kill them when captured when instead you can use them to better treat your own injured soldiers?
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:22 am

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That in turn depends on whether you trust them to
truly heal your people (their enemies),
instead of sabotaging them to break down later,
or controlling their minds to turn them into agents.

Note: whether *you* trust the magistrons,
not whether the magistrons deserve your trust.

HTM

Jonathan_S wrote:Might also depend on how quickly the Sharonan's
realize just how much more capable those magistrons
are at healing battlefield injuries.

Why kill them when captured when instead you can
use them to better treat your own injured soldiers?
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:41 pm

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I think that the Arcanans are being painted with too broad of a brush here. Most of the difficulty seems to be coming out of the Mythalan (sp) culture. The Andrans have their honor code and this Harshu seem willing to sacrifice himself to satisfy it after allowing Neshok to torture prisoners.

IIRC, it will turn out that most of Arcana is going to be horrified at how the war started and the treatment of prisoners in their possession once the truth is full out. And it eventually will.

Don
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