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All the idiots on the Arcanan side?

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:53 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Yet the basis of the Law is at issue. Is that basis simply another expression of force or a moral code?

That Gadrial can use force because she has the intrinsic power to do so speaks to the foundation of Arcana's laws. This is consistent with the existence of mages and a recognition of the fundamental inequality between people in their society.

We have yet to see the degree of libertarian beliefs the Ransarans hold. Their view of the rule of law might well be the most consistent with we the reader's. I doubt that consistency will be profound.


On the basis of what we have so far, the Ransarans seem to be the Arcanans I'm most comfortable with, although, like Gadrial, I admire Jasek's honor code.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by bkwormlisa   » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:39 pm

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Legally speaking, the fact that they were Jasak's shardonai gave them some protection, and the fact that any abuse would have been illegal gave Gadrial at least some justification for threatening the use of magic. She didn't threaten it for insulting Shaylar and Jathmar; she threatened it as a precaution "just in case" something might "happen" to them. As I read it, she wasn't going to use magic unless someone stepped over the law and tried to hurt them.

I'm less certain about the spells she told Jasak she'd tagged them with. She said those were a gray area, but exactly how wasn't explained.
PeterZ wrote:Yet the basis of the Law is at issue. Is that basis simply another expression of force or a moral code?

That Gadrial can use force because she has the intrinsic power to do so speaks to the foundation of Arcana's laws. This is consistent with the existence of mages and a recognition of the fundamental inequality between people in their society.

We have yet to see the degree of libertarian beliefs the Ransarans hold. Their view of the rule of law might well be the most consistent with we the reader's. I doubt that consistency will be profound.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:28 pm

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Yet if force was needed to compel compliance with the law, does it not suggest the same thing? If Jasak's shardonai have protection under the law and Gadrial felt compelled to further guard S&J with her spells, does that not suggest my point has merit? When they got to mul Guthak, force was required to uphold the law. That mum Guthak would subvert the law is a given. That others would acquiesce suggests the force of law is dependent more on people than the idea of the law.

bkwormlisa wrote:Legally speaking, the fact that they were Jasak's shardonai gave them some protection, and the fact that any abuse would have been illegal gave Gadrial at least some justification for threatening the use of magic. She didn't threaten it for insulting Shaylar and Jathmar; she threatened it as a precaution "just in case" something might "happen" to them. As I read it, she wasn't going to use magic unless someone stepped over the law and tried to hurt them.

I'm less certain about the spells she told Jasak she'd tagged them with. She said those were a gray area, but exactly how wasn't explained.
PeterZ wrote:Yet the basis of the Law is at issue. Is that basis simply another expression of force or a moral code?

That Gadrial can use force because she has the intrinsic power to do so speaks to the foundation of Arcana's laws. This is consistent with the existence of mages and a recognition of the fundamental inequality between people in their society.

We have yet to see the degree of libertarian beliefs the Ransarans hold. Their view of the rule of law might well be the most consistent with we the reader's. I doubt that consistency will be profound.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by bkwormlisa   » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:01 am

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I think what you just said is that Arcanans obey the law not because it's the law but because they fear the consequences. If that is what you meant, how is it any different than people on Earth? Some, like Jasak, obey the law because they feel it's right to do so; their honor is bound up in it. But most obey the law out of fear of consequences, not because they believe that the law is always right.

If the local law enforcement (or one's superiors, when that applies) don't enforce the law, many will break it. That makes the Arcanans just like us, really, and says nothing about Arcana's magisters except that they have the ability to make potential lawbreakers regret their actions. That doesn't make them superior, any more than a homeowner that's known to have a gun is "superior" when a criminal declines to break into their house.
PeterZ wrote:Yet if force was needed to compel compliance with the law, does it not suggest the same thing? If Jasak's shardonai have protection under the law and Gadrial felt compelled to further guard S&J with her spells, does that not suggest my point has merit? When they got to mul Guthak, force was required to uphold the law. That mum Guthak would subvert the law is a given. That others would acquiesce suggests the force of law is dependent more on people than the idea of the law.

bkwormlisa wrote:Legally speaking, the fact that they were Jasak's shardonai gave them some protection, and the fact that any abuse would have been illegal gave Gadrial at least some justification for threatening the use of magic. She didn't threaten it for insulting Shaylar and Jathmar; she threatened it as a precaution "just in case" something might "happen" to them. As I read it, she wasn't going to use magic unless someone stepped over the law and tried to hurt them.

I'm less certain about the spells she told Jasak she'd tagged them with. She said those were a gray area, but exactly how wasn't explained.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:54 am

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Not quite what i attempted to say in my post.

The LEOs required force to compel them to enforce the law rather do the expedient thing. If shardonai have a protected status, enforcing the law means their status is protected by the LEOs. Mul Guthak's people would not enforce the law. The simply did not want to suffer Gadrial's magic.

This is likely the case of corruption fostered my mul Guthak. Fair enough. Yet, Gadrial's response to that corruption would seem as far beyond the law as the corruption itself. If it was not, then either politics or sheer magical power was at play. Not so much different from us, no, except for the calculus of the politics. The calculus seems to imply magical power is integral to politics.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by bkwormlisa   » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:06 am

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I would disagree that Gadrial's response was beyond the law. She threatened to use magic only if they broke the law, which to me falls in the realm of self-defense or defending others when the forces of law aren't there to do it. They feared being hurt by her magic, not the political power she had as a magister. If that was the case, her obvious displeasure would have worked without her having to threaten force. Her recourse was strength of arm (equivalent), not political.
PeterZ wrote:Not quite what i attempted to say in my post.

The LEOs required force to compel them to enforce the law rather do the expedient thing. If shardonai have a protected status, enforcing the law means their status is protected by the LEOs. Mul Guthak's people would not enforce the law. The simply did not want to suffer Gadrial's magic.

This is likely the case of corruption fostered my mul Guthak. Fair enough. Yet, Gadrial's response to that corruption would seem as far beyond the law as the corruption itself. If it was not, then either politics or sheer magical power was at play. Not so much different from us, no, except for the calculus of the politics. The calculus seems to imply magical power is integral to politics.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:38 pm

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She did not threaten to use magic. She used it. Those spells were in place and would have had whatever effect she intended. This was not self defense but a preemptive defense. It might be a moot point but she exercised her power at the threat posed to S&J not to counter any actual offered harm.

We both would agree that she enforced her will through force of arms. I would contend that force of arms is a greater part of Arcana's legal system than it is for we readers. Whether is is a largely Ransaran aspect of the Union's legal system is open to question.

bkwormlisa wrote:I would disagree that Gadrial's response was beyond the law. She threatened to use magic only if they broke the law, which to me falls in the realm of self-defense or defending others when the forces of law aren't there to do it. They feared being hurt by her magic, not the political power she had as a magister. If that was the case, her obvious displeasure would have worked without her having to threaten force. Her recourse was strength of arm (equivalent), not political.
PeterZ wrote:Not quite what i attempted to say in my post.

The LEOs required force to compel them to enforce the law rather do the expedient thing. If shardonai have a protected status, enforcing the law means their status is protected by the LEOs. Mul Guthak's people would not enforce the law. The simply did not want to suffer Gadrial's magic.

This is likely the case of corruption fostered my mul Guthak. Fair enough. Yet, Gadrial's response to that corruption would seem as far beyond the law as the corruption itself. If it was not, then either politics or sheer magical power was at play. Not so much different from us, no, except for the calculus of the politics. The calculus seems to imply magical power is integral to politics.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:25 pm

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IIRC, Gadrial was second in command of the Andaran guild of sorcerers. That meant that crossing her was not a career enhancing move for an Arcanan officer. She did use that at least once to protect S&J. So threatening direct use of her magic wasn't the only tool in her arsenal.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:37 pm

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Forts Talon and Wyvern are way out in the Outworlds,
twenty or maybe even thirty worlds away from home,
and very far away from any court.

For that matter, textev shows a Union Parliament,
Union Senate, Union Arbitration Commission (UAC),
and an Inspector General's Office.
No courts have been shown yet, unless the UAC counts.
Mythal has a Hegemony, and a Council Of Twelve.

I have not noticed any Law Enforcement Agents at all,
unless UAC officials count. Not even Military Police.
100 Olderham does his own arresting (of vos Haven).
500 Klian and 2000 mulGurthak, fort commanders,
do the judging. No Legal Officers are mentioned.
This far out on the Frontier, only commanders,
not special judges, are enforcing Law.

So what Authority do Senior Magisters have?

HTM

bkwormlisa wrote:I would disagree that Gadrial's response was beyond the law. She threatened to use magic only if they broke the law, which to me falls in the realm of self-defense or defending others when the forces of law aren't there to do it. They feared being hurt by her magic, not the political power she had as a magister. If that was the case, her obvious displeasure would have worked without her having to threaten force. Her recourse was strength of arm (equivalent), not political.
PeterZ wrote:Not quite what i attempted to say in my post.

The LEOs required force to compel them to enforce the law rather do the expedient thing. If shardonai have a protected status, enforcing the law means their status is protected by the LEOs. Mul Guthak's people would not enforce the law. The simply did not want to suffer Gadrial's magic.

This is likely the case of corruption fostered my mul Guthak. Fair enough. Yet, Gadrial's response to that corruption would seem as far beyond the law as the corruption itself. If it was not, then either politics or sheer magical power was at play. Not so much different from us, no, except for the calculus of the politics. The calculus seems to imply magical power is integral to politics.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:40 pm

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No.
She was 2nd I C of Garth Showma Institute, a College.

No Guild of Sorcerers has been shown in the texts.

Only Shakira may rule in Mythal. We have not yet been
told about Magistrons legal status elsewhere on Arcana.

HTM

n7axw wrote:IIRC, Gadrial was second in command of the Andaran guild of sorcerers. That meant that crossing her was not a career enhancing move for an Arcanan officer. She did use that at least once to protect S&J. So threatening direct use of her magic wasn't the only tool in her arsenal.

Don
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