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RTH Official Snippet #4

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: RTH Official Snippet #4
Post by Astelon   » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:36 pm

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brnicholas wrote:Perhaps a dragon can fly 1000 miles in 12 hours and then needs 6 hours of rest but the pilot much prefers to take off in the morning after a full nights sleep so they usually fly 1000 in 12 hours and then rest for 12 hours and that is where the 1000 miles a day figure came from.


So the pilot needs more rest than the dragon, and by either going without sleep, or rotating pilots, they get more range per day. I could buy that explanation. Either way its the author's story, I'll just have to accept it.

And you are right I, didn't take into account the other half of the Hell's Gate battle. Also there could have been a dragon injury that wasn't mentioned (routine injury) that prevented one or two from taking part in the attack on Fort Salby.

I don't really notice many continuity errors in RFC's work (I have seen a lot worse), and enjoy the work anyways when I do notice one. Keep up the good work.

Edit: just ran some paper napkin calculations.

Assuming the dragon makes a thousand-or a bit more-miles in ten hours, and then needs eight hours to rest and eat, you are left with six more hours in the day. That is another six hundred or so miles traveled, if you can rotate pilots, or are willing exhaust the ones you have. Almost enough for my calculations of eighteen hundred a day. Maybe Toralk was assuming best conditions for the 16 day travel time.
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #4
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:17 pm

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Hello RunsForCelery,

Thanks for the response!

I hope I didn't get too far under the skin, given your recent surgery!

I was more than willing to help, and still am, though its all pretty moot now.

While I was busy in Iraq in 2007-2008, I often suggested at the bar before and after that excursion such a compendium including what was rendered obsolete etc by Eric Flint's From The Highlands acceleration of the plot progression.

But completely overlooking if not outright ignoring your charts in TSVW's appendix to mention just one example is still appalling to me.

L


runsforcelery wrote:I'm sorry you were so dissatisfied, Lyonheart. Personally, I think BuNine did an excellent job. Was it perfect? No, but then they had 20 damned years worth of books --- in which at least some continuity problems were inevitable --- to straighten out. I suspect it's rather easier to criticize them after the fact than it was to do the job in the first place.


lyonheart wrote:Hi Akira. Taylor,

Thanks RFC for another great snippet!

I wouldn't be surprised that dragons recovering from sickness or injuries might be the ticket, or the discrepancy might be explained by the need to rest and feed the dragons etc, these being the designated reserve during their required rest times.

I could be wrong and textev inconsistencies or contradictions are the bane of my enjoyment of RFC's classics particularly with HoS; Bu9 should have read them more or provided explanations for ignoring them besides their non textev additions etc.

L


Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #4
Post by phillies   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:02 pm

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The fairly new China to Germany railroad runs 15 miles or 20 miles an hour, actual average.

there is a video someplace on http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/ of a track replacement robot that does absolutely everything, with an engineer walking along slowly next to it With a double track, it may do over a mile an hour.

However, these people have more practice with really long rail runs and few interruptions.
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Monday Report re: Battle Dragons RTH Official Snippet #4
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:28 pm

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"Monday Report"
Posted on Wednesday.

I have re-checked mentions of Battle Dragons.
HG 789-794:
It was Com-500 Sarr Klian who notes that mul Gurthak
has found "two complete talons, and an extra flight
of four yellow dragons."
It was some of us readers who added these numbers,
and computed 76 Battle Dragons.

DW, JE, & JP have told us, several times, that units
on the frontiers are likely to be understrength.
So, did Klian personally count those dragons 1,2,3,
4, ... 71, 72, and 1,2,3,4 Yellows = 76?
Or did he rely on the reports he was getting?

Be that as it may,
on pages 58 - 76 of HHNF,
500 Myr sends the 3012th Strike to attack the Lines.
It has a flight of three (3) Yellows led by Com-100
Geyrsof (who as Senior Officer also commands the Strike),
but the other eight (8) dragons, all Reds, are sent
in first. Four of them (one flight) go against each
Aspect of the Gate. We are shown Com-25 Berhala's
attack on chan Tesh's Aspect. His own Skyfire is hurt
badly by rifle fire and forced to land in the swamp.
It will take many days to heal enough to return to
battle, even if its wounds don't kill it.
Textev mentions both possibilities.
Red Cloudtiger is killed by machinegun,
and pilot 25 Urkora also dies.
The other two reds escape with little harm.

Then Geyrsof leads the 3 yellows against that Aspect.
Yellow Windslasher is killed by rifle-grenades.

On page 86, 1000 Toralk notes that 2 reds were killed,
and three wounded and incapacitated. Presumably the
other death, and the other two injuries, were inflicted
upon the other Red Flight of the 3012th Strike,
at the other Aspect of that Gate.

On pages 104-5 of HHNF, the 3012th survivors are joined
by the 4016th Strike in attacking Fort Shylar. The two
Yellows go in first, this time, do their poisoning,
and then the Reds release sixteen (16) fireballs into
the fort. I compute that 3012 had 3 little-hurt Reds,
plus 1 or 2 of the hurt Reds, to release that many
fireballs (one per dragon), and the 4016th provided
the other 11, 12, or 13 Red Dragons.

The Fort Salby attack begins on pages 331-333, and
continues for the rest of the chapter.
We are told that the Strikes had been rearranged,
to make their numbers more even.

My guess is that that rearrangement involved all six
Strikes at Hell's Gate, before Harshu and Toralk took
three of those Strikes (3012, 2029, 5001, totaling
one {Provisional} Talon), through Thermyn and deeper
into Sharonan Territory.
Others of us might guess that only those three
Strikes were rearranged.

The Machine-gun Ambush in the approach valley to Salby
killed both yellows and 3 reds before the attackers
could react, and then another red, and a black, as
they were trying to get away.
Total seven (7) dead battle dragons in the Ambush.
That left the 3012 with four, all blacks.
I compute that it had started with 2 yellows, 4 reds,
and 5 blacks, total 11 in the rearranged 3012th Strike.

The 2029th. had not been mentioned at this point, yet,
so we were not told if it had accompanied 3012 or not,
but then it is mentioned, very quickly, as present.
It is stated to have 4 blacks, including 100 Desmar's
Thunderclap, and 6 reds, total 10.

Myr has so far lost 1/3rd of his dragons present,
as is also stated in the text. He has 14 left,
including his own. He sends one back to report,
and leads the remainder, from both Strikes,
in a direct attack on Ft Salby.
Textev states, twice, that 8 are shot down and 4 get
away, 2 of which are badly wounded.

That number does not add up; one is not accounted for.

The two wounded may not survive, and anyway won't
return to service for many days, if at all,
so First Provisonal Talon has only three (3) dragons
in Karys fit for duty, plus Com-100 Helika's 5001st
which will be recalled from Carthos-force.

That is Toralk's Battle-Dragon situation at end of HHNF.

Textev in Snippet 4 contradicts that.

Total Battle-Dragons killed:
3 at HG LINEs.
7 at Ambush.
8 (or nine) at Fort Salby.
---
18 (or 19) Total per HHNF

But in Snippet 4 Toralk is 16 short.

HTM

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:
{snip - htm}
I must check the books, and my notes,
and report on Monday.

HTM
--------------------------------------
Brnichols noted above that the AEF started with two (2)
whole Talons, six (6) Strikes, plus four Yellows.
Only three Yellows were used attacking the Hell's
Gate Lines, leaving one elsewhere. One Yellow was
killed there, with its pilot.

It seems that Harshu and Toralk took only three of
those Strikes, including two Yellows, and Talon
Commander 500 Myr, with them into New Uromath
and Thermyn. That leaves the other three Strikes,
and presumably one Talon Commander,
behind in Hell's Gate, to be part of the garrison
of the place (it needs a garrison), to chase Simrath's
escapees, and to investigate the other Portals.
Arcana would be foolish not to investigate them!

Those three Strikes (and other garrison units) also
(incidently) constitute a Reserve, which might be
sent forward if needed.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3227
which lists all officers & soldiers,
includes three Strike Commanders:
100 Geyrsof, 3012th Strike,
100 Helika, 5001st " , and
100 Desmar, 2029th " .
The 4016th Strike is also mentioned,
but its commander was not named in HHNF.

{snip - htm}

HTM

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Re: Monday Report re: Battle Dragons RTH Official Snippet #4
Post by brnicholas   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:03 pm

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I want to propose a solution to the contradiction.

I suggest that the comment about 2 talons in the book Hell's Gate is correct and one of those talons was left in reserve to garrison the universe Hell's Gate. I suggest that despite the strike numbers the rearrangement left all the dragons lost and wounded attacking Hell's Gate (except one) with the garrison in Hell's Gate. Thus Toralk took one near complete talon, 35 battle dragons, on the offensive. He lost 15 (7 at the ambush, 8 in the diving attack) at the battle of Fort Salby. He now has 20 battle dragons left and this matches exactly with the text of snippet 4.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:...snipped...

That is Toralk's Battle-Dragon situation at end of HHNF.

Textev in Snippet 4 contradicts that.

Total Battle-Dragons killed:
3 at HG LINEs.
7 at Ambush.
8 (or nine) at Fort Salby.
---
18 (or 19) Total per HHNF

But in Snippet 4 Toralk is 16 short.

HTM

...snipped...
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #4
Post by brnicholas   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:18 pm

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3 Things from this Snippet that strike me as important and haven't really been discussed in detail yet.

1) The fact that Arcana has a power net for magical energy which gifted can tap to permit them to do more then they could without it. I suspect the existence of living accumulators like milk cows which provide power to the net and spells which take there power directly from the net. If both exist that radically increases the amount of magical power Arcanan society has available and should change our estimates of how many gifted Arcana can mobilize.

2) Toralk thinks he might get more battle dragons in three or four months. That is way to soon for them to be coming from Arcana so he must be considering reinforcements from other chains. I wonder what else might be arriving with them? I suspect it will depend on the Arcanan command structure. If mul Gurthik reports directly to New Arcana then he can only ask for help from neighboring chains. In which case he will get what they feel they can spare, likely battle dragons and strike griffons, maybe heavy cavalry and artillery, certainly not transport dragons and light cavalry. If, however, he reports to someone with authority over several chains I would expect that person to show up with most of the forces from those chains within the next few months and take command.

3) Why is Toralk thinking about sending the heavy horse and dragons 2000+ miles back to Thermyn for food? Looking at a map it doesn't appear to be more then two or three hundred miles to the shore of the Caspian Sea. He ought to be able to find plenty of food for man and beast there. The only reason I can think of is an Arcanan policy which prohibits it. Said policy may be proving its worth by putting the heavy horse in Chan Geraith's path.

Nicholas
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #4
Post by bkwormlisa   » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:21 am

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1) You're right, a power net (I was picturing some sort of electrical grid, but I'd guess you're right that the energy is produced by living creatures) would be a huge help. The quote is sightly ambiguous, but it does seem to say that Gifted are required to do the charging even with a power net. Still, that means that at home the limit is the number of Gifted hands available, rather than the amount of energy each can personally contribute to charging per day, which should be an enormous multiplier.

2) Commander of Two Thousand implies to me, since the numbers were once real, that he should only have a handful of Commanders of Five Hundred under him. That sounds like he was never intended to command that huge a force (regiment-captain equivalent?), so my guess is that he can't order people from other chains. He might even have a superior officer somewhere back in the same chain. We haven't seen him yet, but I doubt mul Gurthak reports directly to Arcana with nobody in between being higher than him.

3) Thermyn is much farther away, but it is also protected since he is still between it and the Sharonians (or so he thinks). I'd guess he's worried about putting them off to the side where the Sharonians are more likely to be able to slip a mule-based force in to attack. He's probably going to have made the wrong choice, but he can't know that now.

BTW, is there a map of the various portal chains anywhere online? My copy of the book is electronic and it didn't come with it.
brnicholas wrote:3 Things from this Snippet that strike me as important and haven't really been discussed in detail yet.

1) The fact that Arcana has a power net for magical energy which gifted can tap to permit them to do more then they could without it. I suspect the existence of living accumulators like milk cows which provide power to the net and spells which take there power directly from the net. If both exist that radically increases the amount of magical power Arcanan society has available and should change our estimates of how many gifted Arcana can mobilize.

2) Toralk thinks he might get more battle dragons in three or four months. That is way to soon for them to be coming from Arcana so he must be considering reinforcements from other chains. I wonder what else might be arriving with them? I suspect it will depend on the Arcanan command structure. If mul Gurthik reports directly to New Arcana then he can only ask for help from neighboring chains. In which case he will get what they feel they can spare, likely battle dragons and strike griffons, maybe heavy cavalry and artillery, certainly not transport dragons and light cavalry. If, however, he reports to someone with authority over several chains I would expect that person to show up with most of the forces from those chains within the next few months and take command.

3) Why is Toralk thinking about sending the heavy horse and dragons 2000+ miles back to Thermyn for food? Looking at a map it doesn't appear to be more then two or three hundred miles to the shore of the Caspian Sea. He ought to be able to find plenty of food for man and beast there. The only reason I can think of is an Arcanan policy which prohibits it. Said policy may be proving its worth by putting the heavy horse in Chan Geraith's path.

Nicholas
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #4
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:22 pm

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I think Thermyn is simply the best place to both graze the horses and have easy access to lots of meat. The rest is secondary to their supply needs. That from Thermyn the transport dragons can also keep the garrisons along the Kelsayr chain supplied is an secondary benefit.
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X-Refs to other snippets re: RTH Official Snippet #4
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:41 am

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No one has cross-referenced prior
snippets to this thread yet.

Snippet #1 is at
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6957

Snippet #3 is at
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7016

HTM
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #4
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:57 am

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Note that Toralk is reviewing reports,
not talking to any one.
Remember that in books 1 & 2,
Arcanan commanders discussed things with few others,
usually one or two.
The most was five, when Jasek and Neshok reported
together to mul Girthik's office when Skirvon and
Desshik were present. However, when those two had
reported they left, and G discussed their reports with
S & D, as The Three Seniors.
Then D left, and G discussed him behind his back with
S, as an "Inner Circle." Then S also left, and then G
sent his own report to the Council Of Twelve,
the real "Inner Circle." (as far as G knew, but how
many "inner groups" did the Twelve have, and what about
the rest of Mythal, and indeed the rest of Arcana?)
Meanwhile, back to the books:
We have also seen 500 Klian thinking to himself.

So much for Arcanans so far!
As for Sharonans, in Snippets 2 and 3,
we see chan Gerath discussing his plans with his staff,
at least five of them. This reminds me of Janiki telling
Chan Rof and about five other officers about his Glimpse.
Also chan Tesh discussing his plans with several officers.
The Theme, that Sharonans talk to larger groups of each
other than Arcanans do, is still intact four snippets
into book 3. Also note that Emperor Zindel talked with
his entire Counsel, even if only a couple were named.

HTM


Chapter Three

Commander of One Thousand Klayrman Toralk glowered at the report in his personal crystal. It was neatly organized and illustrated by half a dozen color-coded graphs and charts — obviously, the intelligence types had figured out how to get the best out of their wordprocessing spellware — but it made grim and ugly reading.
{snip - htm}
[/quote]
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