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Stopping the Sharonan advance

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by n7axw   » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:40 pm

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brnicholas wrote:I have a great deal of difficulty seeing a negotiated settlement to this war in the natural lifetime of Andrin Calirath. I think that between them mul Gurthak and Harshu have burned that bridge, dynamited its foundations, and sown fields of trap spells on both banks and in the river to keep anyone from rebuilding it.

The only way I can imagine such a thing happening is if Shylar and Jathmar are standing on Sharona arguing that the Arcana government can be trusted before negotiations start. That requires the Arcanans to return them to Sharona and given the military advantage Shylar and Jathmar's knowledge will give Sharona that is a desperation move I can't see any Arcanan government making (even one completely dominated by the Olderhans).

Nicholas


There have been negotiated settlements on occasions when even more offense has been given than we have seen in the multiverse in real life. Sometimes mutual exhaustion has to set in first, but it does happen.

What military advantage are you referring to? Shylar and Jathmar certainly have been in no position to do any spying. By the time they could be returned at this point, Sharona will already know everything military Shylar and Jathmar could tell them and more.

As for the rest, they would be able to relate how they.were treated and what they have learned about Arcanan society. In fact, I could see Arcana returning them as a good faith step leading to a raproachment. Once Sharona gets past the reality that they were lied to about Shylar and Jathmar's fate, it might even work. Stranger things happen all the time.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by SYED   » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:54 pm

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The thing is both talent and magic can detect locate and asses portals, so their abilities might have some kind of common ground. They are simply differing expressions of it. Sort of like mages and wizards in war God own.
The guy said the rules are imposed by the people who populate the universe. what happens at the borders, He'll gate will see a lot from either side, so both or a hybrid of the power could be seen here. The Wizards draw power from vacuum energy my best guess where the talented draw power from themselves. what happens if there is a way to fuel magic from the user, or boost the talent from vacuum energy. There are hints of sensitivity to each other. If they could create ways to cooperate with each other, it could allow for their systems to interact and not suppress each other.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:48 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
SYED wrote:Was there an explanation for the weakening of abilities? If tgey can ve weakened, they can be strengthejed. Is it me or it the fact that each side has a fifth of tveir ability touched by tgeir power.


Yes, according to RFC, universes start out neutral. The longer the universe is occupied by one side or another, the more the balance tilts to that form of physics. As the balance tilts one way or the other, the other physics becomes less possible. Even if a universe was occupied by one side for some time, if the other side occupies it long enough, the physics will swing that way. As I recall, I have this information from the interview.
I at least got the impression that it was a factor of both length of occupancy and size of occupancy.
Put a bunch of settlers in the world and I think the physics shifts faster than if you had just a few scouts.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:36 pm

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n7axw wrote:
brnicholas wrote:I have a great deal of difficulty seeing a negotiated settlement to this war in the natural lifetime of Andrin Calirath. I think that between them mul Gurthak and Harshu have burned that bridge, dynamited its foundations, and sown fields of trap spells on both banks and in the river to keep anyone from rebuilding it.

The only way I can imagine such a thing happening is if Shylar and Jathmar are standing on Sharona arguing that the Arcana government can be trusted before negotiations start. That requires the Arcanans to return them to Sharona and given the military advantage Shylar and Jathmar's knowledge will give Sharona that is a desperation move I can't see any Arcanan government making (even one completely dominated by the Olderhans).

Nicholas


There have been negotiated settlements on occasions when even more offense has been given than we have seen in the multiverse in real life. Sometimes mutual exhaustion has to set in first, but it does happen.

What military advantage are you referring to? Shylar and Jathmar certainly have been in no position to do any spying. By the time they could be returned at this point, Sharona will already know everything military Shylar and Jathmar could tell them and more.

As for the rest, they would be able to relate how they.were treated and what they have learned about Arcanan society. In fact, I could see Arcana returning them as a good faith step leading to a raproachment. Once Sharona gets past the reality that they were lied to about Shylar and Jathmar's fate, it might even work. Stranger things happen all the time.

Don


The issue of mutual exhaustion is why I inserted the limit about Andrin's natural lifetime. She should live another 80 years, I can see a peace resulting from mutual exhaustion at that point. So you are right there.

The idea of Arcana returning them as a "good faith step leading to a rapprochement" is a good one and that is what it would have to be. Arcana returning them unconditionally in the hope that it would lead to improved relations. But that is such a huge gamble and so against the Arcanan experience that members of other cultures exploit weakness that I can't see it happening unless Sharona is near military victory.

As for what military advantage they could give Sharona. Sharona knows almost nothing about Arcana. There are an enormous number of things that Shaylar and Jathmar will learn living on New Arcana for a few months that would be of great military value for Sharona and which Sharona is very unlikely to learn any other way (the only way I can see is if they end up with a group of Arcanan prisoners who are betraying Arcana). Some examples that could have military value.

Fluency in Andaraan, Ransaran & Mythalan

The transport capacity and speed of Sliders and dragons

The basic theory of Arcana technology. In other words the stuff about magic that every Arcanan child knows but no one will tell Sharona

Arcanan population size, economic base and general maps of Arcanan territory

What the insignia on Arcanan uniforms mean

How the Arcanan government is structured (especially local government)

What Arcanan customs are regarding captured civilian populations

The list is endless and giving all that information to Sharona without knowing they will get a peace out of it is a huge risk for Arcana.

Nicholas
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Re: PING brnicholas re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:50 pm

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Thanks for the snipping, brevity is a blessing.

You have convinced me regarding honor mul Gurthak earns reflecting on other Mythalan officers. I'm not sure how much it would help those others and don't think we have enough data to even make educated guesses but agree it would help some, possibly quite a lot.

In your answer to my question it seems to me that you are saying that the Group of Twelve's goal is wrong. That they should not be trying to take over the Union but instead they should be trying to raise the status of Mythal from partially conquered territory to full equal with Andara and Ransar in the Union. I can't argue with that for their current goal is evil and your goal is a much much better one. However, to say their goal is evil isn't to answer my question about why brownie points are more valuable for the Mythalan plan then disgracing a divisions worth of Andraran officers.

It appears to me that the Mythalans need to secure control of the Army in order to convert it into an organization which will support their coup. Since Ransar and Andara are currently both supporting a policy of maintaining a general staff which consists exclusively of Andaran aristocrats I don't see how any quantity of Brownie points will let the Mythalans not only break that monopoly but get enough of their people in to give them the control of the army required. So I don't see how more brownie points help them achieve their goal.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Snipping all points of agreement for some brevity.

My point, as with Peter,
is that the Mythal conspirators expect some things,
but I expect other things.

Magister Halathyn is an Exception to all Rules,
and to all Expectations.
None of his deeds reflect on any other Mythalan.
Mul Gurthak is considered typical among those Mythalans
who became Union Army officers. (He may actually be,
depending on what those others are doing.)
Any honor he earns, or appears to earn,
will make those others look good in the eyes of Ransarans
and other Arcanans.

Of course, any dishonor he is caught in now will make
all those Mythalans officers very suspect indeed.
It would likely ruin their credibility for that whole generation.

That brings me to your question ##3)##.
The Mythalans likely do hold that publically disgracing
a division-worth of Andaran officers would help their
Plan more than anything else. Indeed, that is what that
Plan is out to achieve!

Me, I disagree with that idea.
I doubt that disgracing Andarans will help Mythalans
so very much.
I deem that they would do better to make themselves
look good: like Civilized People who can live at peace
with Ransarans, other Arcanans, and even Outworlders.
Thus I further deem that making peace with those
OUtworlders would help them significantly more than
their Original Plan would.
If Mythalans such as vos-and-mul Gurthak could only see
that (but of course they can't).

And then, corruption within a group might be corrected.
People familiar with large groups know this.
Look at large Earthly groups that have not been destroyed
by massive scandals and corruptions.

Best I can explain.

HTM

PS we do not need to see how things can happen,
for those things to happen.
We can always be surprised.
Especially by a Storyteller!

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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by SYED   » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:25 pm

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The duke would want a peace treaty with the sharonans as it is an empire that is totally devoid of magic,so those that believe in the superiority of those with magic have all their arguments undercut. Those that believe all are equal would back this as the empire supports their own beliefs.
While the power impresses on a universe, does the science they are based on. That guy who got killed by friendly fire, he had alsorts of theories, dragons come from DNA mapping, so while the magical arts might be selective, the knowledge they allowed to gather are multi universal. Imagine how tech and sciences of the sharonans would advance if given the sciences gathered by the magic users. I am thinking it would be like safehold level of thech, that is pushing heavily on the proscriptions, especially the loop holes. That not considering technology augemented by magic.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by Keith_w   » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:58 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote: quote="Keith_w" quote="SYED"Was there an explanation for the weakening of abilities? If tgey can ve weakened, they can be strengthejed. Is it me or it the fact that each side has a fifth of tveir ability touched by tgeir power. /quote

Yes, according to RFC, universes start out neutral. The longer the universe is occupied by one side or another, the more the balance tilts to that form of physics. As the balance tilts one way or the other, the other physics becomes less possible. Even if a universe was occupied by one side for some time, if the other side occupies it long enough, the physics will swing that way. As I recall, I have this information from the interview. /quote

I at least got the impression that it was a factor of both length of occupancy and size of occupancy.
Put a bunch of settlers in the world and I think the physics shifts faster than if you had just a few scouts.

Absolutly the number of occupiers has an effect on the physics tendency.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by n7axw   » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:26 pm

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brnicholas wrote:
The issue of mutual exhaustion is why I inserted the limit about Andrin's natural lifetime. She should live another 80 years, I can see a peace resulting from mutual exhaustion at that point. So you are right there.



The list is endless and giving all that information to Sharona without knowing they will get a peace out of it is a huge risk for Arcana.

Nicholas


Andrin has been having a rough time, particularly over the loss of her brother, but I don't see her committed to endless war. Bear in mind her silent vow to the soldiers of her country not to spend their lives needlessly. The Thirty Years War which was about as exhausting as it gets for the principals only lasted thirty years.

Point taken on what might be of military value. I was working with a narrower definition.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by brnicholas   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:07 am

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n7axw wrote:
brnicholas wrote:
The issue of mutual exhaustion is why I inserted the limit about Andrin's natural lifetime. She should live another 80 years, I can see a peace resulting from mutual exhaustion at that point. So you are right there.



The list is endless and giving all that information to Sharona without knowing they will get a peace out of it is a huge risk for Arcana.

Nicholas


Andrin has been having a rough time, particularly over the loss of her brother, but I don't see her committed to endless war. Bear in mind her silent vow to the soldiers of her country not to spend their lives needlessly. The Thirty Years War which was about as exhausting as it gets for the principals only lasted thirty years.

Point taken on what might be of military value. I was working with a narrower definition.

Don


I don't see Andrin committed to endless war either, but the issue is trust. I don't see her willing to make peace if she believe Arcana will resume the war as soon as they think they have the advantage.

Three times Sharona has tried to talk to Arcana, three times they have been attacked. The third time in the middle of negotiations the Arcanans started. The only rational conclusion for Sharona to reach from this data is that Arcana will attack when they think they have the military advantage. Which means any offer of negotiation from Arcana should be interpreted as a sign that Arcana is weak and thus Sharona should go on the offensive before Arcana recovers. If negotiators say not and sifters say they are telling the truth the logical conclusion is that Arcana has figured out how to fool sifters. In summary, given what Sharona "knows" negotiating with Arcana is no longer rational for Sharona.

As for mutual exhaustion, the huge transport distances and enormous populations mean casualities will be proportionally low so it will take much longer to set in then historical examples will imply.

Nicholas
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Re: PING brnicholas re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:38 am

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Nicholas,
First, it is now clear that we
are writing about different things.

I have been writing about what
really would be good for Mythal.

You have been writing about what
helps the Mythalan Council Of Twelve's Plan,
and what they expect to help their plan.

The "brownie points" can be of little help to the Plan
(only to confuse other Arcanans), but they can be a
great help to the real (IMO) needs of Mythal.

Second, IfIRC, we were told that Andaran generals and
other officers predominate in the Commandery. I don't
recall being told that it is exclusively Andaran.
My understanding is that it includes officers from
most Arcanan nations, even though more than half of
its officers are Andarans. So Mythalans who might get
high places in the Commandery are already in it, in
lower places. The Mythalans can also hope,
and optimistically expect,
that officers from other countries will support Mythalans
against Andarans, once they have learned that Mythalan
philosophy and religion are True.
A very optimistic expectation, but no different than
OTL Buddhists, Christians, and Moslems each expecting
that, some day once the Truth is known, everybody in the
world will convert to their belief.

HTM, who is not certain that the Council Of Twelve is
the only secret group trying to control Mythal.

brnicholas wrote:Thanks for the snipping, brevity is a blessing.

You have convinced me regarding honor mul Gurthak earns reflecting on other Mythalan officers. I'm not sure how much it would help those others and don't think we have enough data to even make educated guesses but agree it would help some, possibly quite a lot.

In your answer to my question it seems to me that you are saying that the Group of Twelve's goal is wrong. That they should not be trying to take over the Union but instead they should be trying to raise the status of Mythal from partially conquered territory to full equal with Andara and Ransar in the Union. I can't argue with that for their current goal is evil and your goal is a much much better one. However, to say their goal is evil isn't to answer my question about why brownie points are more valuable for the Mythalan plan then disgracing a divisions worth of Andraran officers.

It appears to me that the Mythalans need to secure control of the Army in order to convert it into an organization which will support their coup. Since Ransar and Andara are currently both supporting a policy of maintaining a general staff which consists exclusively of Andaran aristocrats I don't see how any quantity of Brownie points will let the Mythalans not only break that monopoly but get enough of their people in to give them the control of the army required. So I don't see how more brownie points help them achieve their goal.

Nicholas
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