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Stopping the Sharonan advance

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by Astelon   » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:06 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:Arcanian Transport Dragon lift capability is now 1/2 what it was in the move to Traisum.

If the Arcanians dump all the non-dragon creatures, the infantry/field dragons and pretty much everything else including food, they night be able to get most men out in one lift


IIRC there are twelve thousand arcanans in the Expeditionary Force. With a stated number of one hundred seventy transport dragons having an average lift capacity of fifteen tons, then they can transport four hundred twenty-five pounds of weight for each man. They can easily get the men and some supplies out, all they need is enough time to load the dragons. This would require leaving most of the other animals behind as you mentioned.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:19 pm

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This --

IIRC there are twelve thousand arcanans in the Expeditionary Force. With a stated number of one hundred seventy transport dragons having an average lift capacity of fifteen tons, then they can transport four hundred twenty-five pounds of weight for each man. They can easily get the men and some supplies out, all they need is enough time to load the dragons. This would require leaving most of the other animals behind as you mentioned.


...is a flawed analysis in that not all 170(+) dragons are giong to be in Kayrs/Traisum.

According to Snippet #4, some 20% are going to be up-chain hunting at any given time plus however many are transiting to and from the hunting grounds.

Those dragons will not be available for immediate movement of troops, given the basic inability of moving dragons to receive message bird communications.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by n7axw   » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:01 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:This --

IIRC there are twelve thousand arcanans in the Expeditionary Force. With a stated number of one hundred seventy transport dragons having an average lift capacity of fifteen tons, then they can transport four hundred twenty-five pounds of weight for each man. They can easily get the men and some supplies out, all they need is enough time to load the dragons. This would require leaving most of the other animals behind as you mentioned.


...is a flawed analysis in that not all 170(+) dragons are giong to be in Kayrs/Traisum.

According to Snippet #4, some 20% are going to be up-chain hunting at any given time plus however many are transiting to and from the hunting grounds.

Those dragons will not be available for immediate movement of troops, given the basic inability of moving dragons to receive message bird communications.


True. The number of dragons available will depend on how successful chan Geraith is in springing his surprise. The more warning Harshu gets, the more dragons can be available for his withdrawal.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by Astelon   » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:12 pm

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If sixty percent of the dragons (102) are available (assuming twenty percent at hunting grounds and a further twenty percent assigned to other duties) you can still get all the men out, supplies to feed those men would be limited though. You might be able to do it if only forty percent (68) are available, but you only have 170 pounds per person. This would require loading more weight onto some dragons, and limiting their range. But they don't have to fly very far (300 miles or so) to outrun ground forces that are limited to fifteen miles an hour.

Further I would expect the transport command to keep a supply of accumulators for emergencies, like combat operations or retreating.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by SYED   » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:39 pm

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Where would the airial creatures most likely be gathered? Lots would be in service transporting materials, some would be deployed, but others would be kept where there are food to supply them. It seems likely the food stations and forwards deployments are likely to be where they will get the most loses, as not all creatures will be stabled or in a vulnerable position.. i bet the stables and supplies will be primary targets. The thing is with the fewer worlds to be deployed, the remaining dragons might have an easier time supplying and guarding them.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:33 pm

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This --


Astelon wrote:If sixty percent of the dragons (102) are available (assuming twenty percent at hunting grounds and a further twenty percent assigned to other duties) you can still get all the men out, supplies to feed those men would be limited though. You might be able to do it if only forty percent (68) are available, but you only have 170 pounds per person. This would require loading more weight onto some dragons, and limiting their range. But they don't have to fly very far (300 miles or so) to outrun ground forces that are limited to fifteen miles an hour.

Further I would expect the transport command to keep a supply of accumulators for emergencies, like combat operations or retreating.


Assumes the following:

1. An evacuation plan in the event of Sharonan flanking, by-pass, or breakthrough.
2. The dragon evacuation rally point is not under Sharonan talent directed artillery fire
3. Regardless of #1 & #2, the ability to communicate rapidly to the various elements to be evacuated.

These don't seem to be there.

Further, from a recent 40 year anniversary, the Fall of Saigon is remembered mostly for media photos and film of helicopters leaving the American embassy and arriving on American aircraft carriers to be dumped over the side.

What is not remembered were the Vietnamese Rangers, properly known in Vietnamese as the Biệt Động Quân, who held the air evacuation perimeter and were mostly destroyed by PAVN armored columns in and around Saigon.

Any Arcanian evacuation is going to have a rear guard who will not be getting away from Sharonan Bisons.

In a lot of ways the Arcanian military reminds me a lot of the following description of South Vietnam's ARVN military forces right down to the corruption, lack of officer professionalism, and the ethnic fragmentation:

The ARVN had some HUGE problems, however, and they prevented it from ever being the cohesive & motivated fighting force that the PAVN was.

Most of these problems started at the top. The RVN military wasn't simply a fighting force, it was a source of political power & a place for patronage. Under Diem, Thieu & the ones in between Generals were appointed for political loyalty, not ability. The same was often true of officers down to colonel level. Even the distribution of units throughout the country was sometimes based on the need to shore up political power in one place or another.

This didn't mean that men of ability didn't rise to the top, but they were unevenly distributed & could not always rely on ability to get ahead. Worse, the gulf between good & bad was VAST
. The US military & the PAVN were essentially professional militaries (the PAVN was politicized, but in a different way). Even a poor officer at least had the benefit of proper professional training & would often be replaced for poor performance.

The political dimension in the ARVN worked against it in a number of ways. One was the professionalism of officers. Another was corruption. The RVN was one of the most legendarily corrupt regimes of modern history. There is little doubt that there were officers who sold off equipment on the black market. I'm not sure if there was padding of numbers with 'ghost' soldiers (as in the Cambodian FANK), but it wouldn't surprise me. All of this couldn't help but lower morale.

The issue of morale is very important in understanding the ARVN. The deep divisions in RVN society (Chinese, Vietnamese, Catholic, Khmer, Hmong, Cao Dai, Hoa Hao) limited the effectiveness of conscription. Close ties to regional areas made moving units around difficult. Mistrust of government & deep divisions over the purpose of the war also hindered cohesion. Rates of desertion & refusal to be conscripted were also problems.

The truth about the ARVN is that it was wildly erratic. At its best its units could match it with the best. Unfortunately the unevenness of the organization as a whole meant that performance such as this could not be sustained indefinitely. In the end poor units were going to face good ones. In the end the sight of one unit or another breaking would domino, as it did more than once. I would agree that American observers have been overly harsh on the ARVN, but that does not mean it was not deeply flawed.



In a lot of ways, this battle set up for Return to Hell reminds me greatly of the 1974 Battle of Thuong Duc.

See reference here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... bn-div.htm
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by Astelon   » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:27 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:1. An evacuation plan in the event of Sharonan flanking, by-pass, or breakthrough.
2. The dragon evacuation rally point is not under Sharonan talent directed artillery fire
3. Regardless of #1 & #2, the ability to communicate rapidly to the various elements to be evacuated.


The Bisons have a long way to go, with plenty of opportunity for a warning to get through. Chan Garaith's artillery will have to get within approximately ten miles* to bring the evacuation area under attack. There appears to be to much time for Harshu to be informed of the advance to be caught completely off guard by it, but I suppose its possible. If the sharonians do get wwithin artillery range of an arcanan camp, then that camp is likely to be destroyed.

*A guess based on the technology otherwise seen on Sharona. Could be somewhat farther because they have the ability to make use of the extra range, and therefore a reason to push development of longer ranged weapons.

The only thing we have that shows corruption in the arcanan military is the advancement of Garlath (who was stopped at a platoon leader position despite some patronage) and the efforts of Gurthak to corrupt officers around him. We can assume that other Mythalan agents are attempting to corrupt other officers, but so far we haven't seen evidence of widespread corruption. I will accept your point about ethnic fragmentation, and it appears likely to be a major point in the story going forward.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by SYED   » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:40 pm

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There will be a problem with an evacuation, there might be a potential rear guard lleft behind, but they are are facing an opponent who has weapons with far greater ranges than their doctrines were based upon. Sure the attack dragons could keep the enemy focused, but dragons were not built to handle such heavy artillery ort ranges.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:00 am

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I disagree with this --

Astelon wrote:
The Bisons have a long way to go, with plenty of opportunity for a warning to get through. Chan Garaith's artillery will have to get within approximately ten miles* to bring the evacuation area under attack. There appears to be to much time for Harshu to be informed of the advance to be caught completely off guard by it, but I suppose its possible. If the sharonians do get wwithin artillery range of an arcanan camp, then that camp is likely to be destroyed.

*A guess based on the technology otherwise seen on Sharona. Could be somewhat farther because they have the ability to make use of the extra range, and therefore a reason to push development of longer ranged weapons.

The only thing we have that shows corruption in the arcanan military is the advancement of Garlath (who was stopped at a platoon leader position despite some patronage) and the efforts of Gurthak to corrupt officers around him. We can assume that other Mythalan agents are attempting to corrupt other officers, but so far we haven't seen evidence of widespread corruption. I will accept your point about ethnic fragmentation, and it appears likely to be a major point in the story going forward.



Garlath's incompetence and Thalmayar predilection to torture were not the result of Gurthak's corruption efforts.

The Second Andaran Scout Brigade whose platoon and company got chewed up at HellsGate was the hereditary command of the Dukes of Garth.

Garlath was the younger cousin of a Andaran Baron holding his position in the Andaran Military -- despite manifest incompetence -- via shear nepotism.

Likely said Baron was one under the current Duke of Garth.

Thalmayar's torture of his Sharonan healers has very little to do with Gurthak's corruption efforts and everything to do with his unhinged mind being given the opportunity to vent.

That both men were able to maintain their positions in the elite Second Andaran Scout Brigade says a great deal about the issue of nepotism and connections being more important for promotion than demonstrated skill in the Arcanian Military.

And I will add one more thing.

The key tell of the story about Arcanian military dysfunction is the way the Transport Dragon pilot Salmeer described his systematic poor treatment by Andaran junior officers in the Arcanian military (Page 201 Hells Gate).

"I've answered the call of more than a few commanders of 100 sir, and I'll tell you plain -- You're the first who's given a good godsdamn about the opinions of a Transport pilot."

Junior officers in a military where Dragons are both the primary weapon and transportation treating any dragon pilot with disdain for their knowledge is just mind blowing.

That plain Transport Dragon pilots don't seem to need a gift to pilot their beasts seems to play a part in this.
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Re: Stopping the Sharonan advance
Post by brnicholas   » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:11 am

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I agree with Mil-tech Bard that there are significant problems in the Arcanan military. I'm pretty sure that they aren't as bad as what the ARVN had, but as Mil-tech Bard made clear that is faint praise.

The key strength of the Arcanan army would appear to be that the upper ranks are still mostly faithful to their honor code. This means corruption is not a major problem (it is a minor problem in all human societies) and incompetence is a block to promotion.

Its weaknesses appear to me to be the result of two centuries of peace. I suspect one major disaster and the rust will get cleaned off pretty quick.

Nicholas
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