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Relative size of combatants

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by bkwormlisa   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:13 am

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Jonathan:

When it comes to a ropeway down the cliff into Karys, I fully agree that they couldn't simply put a rope at the top and connect it to a tower at the bottom. But I think what Mil-tech Bard is suggesting is having the ropeway towers perpendicular to the cliff, not the ground. That is, there would be supports sticking out from the cliff every few hundred feet, so the ropeway would angle down much as the Cut eventually would, hugging the cliff all the way. That would give the cables the frequent support they need and allow an angle much shallower than 45 degrees. I agree with him that that is possible, though it's not a type of ropeway we tend to build on Earth. We avoid slopes that steep because we can.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:20 pm

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Change of subject.

I wonder if Sharona has rifle scopes? If so, are there enough even weak precognitives to provide enough long range snipers to threaten Arcanan camps or dragons?

A .50 Cal bullet in the head will drop even a 60 ton dragon. A sniper with a scope and just enough precognitive ability to accurately lead a flying dragon or anticipate the movements of dragons and people in camp could be very effective.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:08 pm

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Jonathan_S, bkwormlisa

Both of you seem to have a very...flawed...understanding of the tensile strength of steel cable and what that means in terms of ropeway vertical lift capability over distance.

Please see --




Then this --


Komagatake Ropeway

http://www.viator.com/Tokyo-attractions ... 334-a11880

See the so-called Nagano Alps from Japan's highest aerial tramway, the Komogatake Ropeway. The Ropeway opened in 1963 and is a popular way to take in one of the most stunning, scenic views in Japan. The Ropeway runs from the edge of Lake Ashi to the summit of Mount Komagatake, its namesake. The ropeway carries passengers 950 meters (3,116 feet), making it the highest vertical aerial tramway in the country. The ride soars through the clouds to provide views of Japan's highest mountain - Mt. Fuji, as well as the seven Izu Islands, Lake Ashinoko, and expansive coastline."



Then finally this with the ropeway specs --


Komagatake Ropeway

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komagatake_Ropeway

Description

The line, opened in 1967, climbs Mount Kisokoma (木曽駒ヶ岳). Its summit station, Senjōjiki, is known as the station with the highest altitude in the country, 2,611.5 m (8,567.9 ft).


Specifications
System: Aerial tramway, 1 track cable and 2 haulage ropes
Distance: 2.3 kilometres (1.4 mi)
Vertical interval: 950 m (3,117 ft)

Passenger capacity per a cabin: 61
Stations: 2
Time required for single ride: 7 minutes, 30 seconds.



Nine hundred fifty meters is 3116.8 feet.

2,300 meters is 7545.93 feet.

The angle of the ropeway cable is a little more than 24 degrees.

This is right in the middle of the range of 1911 ropeway capability that I laid out in my Wednesday Jul 15, 2015 30-60-90 TRIGONOMETRIC FUNCTION ANALYSIS.

The ability to put a ropeway over the Traisum Cut is fundamentally a trivial exercise within the larger civil engineering project of making the Cut.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:13 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Change of subject.

I wonder if Sharona has rifle scopes? If so, are there enough even weak precognitives to provide enough long range snipers to threaten Arcanan camps or dragons?

A .50 Cal bullet in the head will drop even a 60 ton dragon. A sniper with a scope and just enough precognitive ability to accurately lead a flying dragon or anticipate the movements of dragons and people in camp could be very effective.


To have a .50 caliber rifle requires AFV's.

The 19th Century Sharps rifle aside, the .50 caliber sniper rifle of today had its basis as a 1920's-1940's anti-tank weapon.

Ternathia just got the Bison.

I doubt that anti-tank rifle has showed up yet.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:00 pm

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This is something RFC dropped in the #3 Snipette topic.

It is -way- important for the ropeway/railway argument up-thread.

TTE made an ENORMOUS investment in infrastructure while simultaneously supporting the Traisum Cut and the railroad building on the other side of the Vandor Ocean.

This includes a really, really big stockpile of rails and other RR-building equipment, and (if you will recall) they got additional engineering equipment and rails off to increase the rail line even before the Arcanan invasion kicked off and (for that matter) before the Conclave was called back home in Sharona.

This is also something TTE has done before over quite a few universes, so they knew exactly what to send without any consultation with military engineers.

The troop movements actually started only after virtually all of the engineering supplies were already en route (using rolling stock [and industry] down-chain from Sharona), whereas the troops had to come from Sharona itself.

Trust me, there was time for the TTE logistics buildup to be almost completely in place before troop movements began straining movement resources closer to Fort Salby.

There is a larger civilian presence in Traisum than I suspect you were allowing for, but not enough to actually produce the bulk of the needed material being shipped in.

On the other hand, the TTE has been ferrying rolling stock and locomotives to the Traisum side of the various water gaps from the beginning, and chan Geraith can count on a massively increased transport capability within the next month or so.

The bottleneck is going to be shipping on the water gaps in question, actually, and TTE

(a) had already built up heavily in that regard because of the pre-war construction requirements in Traisum and

(b) uses prefabbed ships whose components are rail transportable and which are assembled in local shipyards, and everything they had in the ship construction stockpiles has been sent scurrying off to reinforce the transport capabilities down this chain.


NB: I think RFC's "various water gaps" comment means Howard's point about a short railway from a water gap port to Ft. Salby is spot-on.

I cannot stress enough how important that TTE infrastructure transportation "pulse", before troop movements, is for a Sharonan Army war of movement against the Arcanians.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:30 pm

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They already have a .50 Cal machine gun. How difficult is to upgrade an existing sniper rifle to fire the same .50 Cal bullets? I don't think that is too difficult. Designing that rifle that doesn't beat the snott out of the shooter might be tougher.

Mil-tech bard wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Change of subject.

I wonder if Sharona has rifle scopes? If so, are there enough even weak precognitives to provide enough long range snipers to threaten Arcanan camps or dragons?

A .50 Cal bullet in the head will drop even a 60 ton dragon. A sniper with a scope and just enough precognitive ability to accurately lead a flying dragon or anticipate the movements of dragons and people in camp could be very effective.


To have a .50 caliber rifle requires AFV's.

The 19th Century Sharps rifle aside, the .50 caliber sniper rifle of today had its basis as a 1920's-1940's anti-tank weapon.

Ternathia just got the Bison.

I doubt that anti-tank rifle has showed up yet.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:38 pm

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Alright, I finally got this downloaded and clipped.

See the Janaki-Kinlafia conversation involving the TTE railway construction to Ft Salby, especially the bold section --

Hells Gate
Chapter 34


"Your Highness, I deeply appreciate your invitation to use your first name. And perhaps one of these days, if I do go into politics, and if my career prospers the way you seem to feel it might, I may even take you up on the offer—in private, at least. But I don't feel comfortable doing it yet. For that matter, it probably wouldn't be a very good habit for me to get into. I imagine there are quite a few sticklers, not all of them in Ternathia, who'd hold that sort of lesse majesty against me at the polls."

"There might be, at that," Janaki agreed after a moment. "And the fact that you're thinking that way suggests to me that you are indeed considering seeking a seat in whatever new parliament comes out of this situation."

"Yes, Your Highness." Kinlafia sighed. "I am." He shook his head, his expression rueful. "I can't believe I am, but I am. And it's your fault."

"Guilty as charged," Janaki conceded cheerfully. Then his smile faded. "There's a reason I've been pressing you about it, though."

"A reason, Your Highness?"

"Yes. It's going to take us quite a while to reach Fort Brithik with these ambulances. The going's better after that, but we're still not going to set any speed records through the mountains, especially if they decide to send the wounded clear to Fort Raylthar instead of holding them at Brithik. If you're seriously contemplating taking my advice, then I think you should also consider going on ahead of the column. You'd make a lot better time on your own. In fact, if you think your backside is up to it, I have the authority to authorize you to use remounts from the PAAF liveries along the way."

"Why?" Kinlafia looked back across at the prince. "I mean, why is it important for me to rush ahead that way?"

Janaki didn't reply immediately. Instead, he turned in his saddle and looked back down the trail behind them. For a wonder, it wasn't raining for once here in New Uromath, not that anyone expected that to last. Fortunately, Sharonians in general and the PAAF in particular had amassed an enormous amount of experience in how to move people and material through even highly unprepossessing terrain.

Each party which had passed through on its way to Company-Captain Halifu's fort and the portal which had acquired the so-far informal name of Hell's Gate had done at least a little to improve the going for whoever might come after. Company-Captain chan Tesh's main column had done the lion's share of the work, in no small part because it had been accompanied by freight wagons (which had to get through somehow). No one in his right mind would call the trail a "road," but at least the worst of the ravines and gullies had been crudely bridged, the worst of the unavoidable swampy bits had been corduroyed with felled trees, and a right-of-way of sorts had been hacked out, just wide enough for two of the standard Authority freight wagons—or one of its ambulances—to pass abreast.

Unlike the freight wagons, the ambulances had broad, fat pneumatic tires, made out of the relatively newly developed heat-treated rubber, and the best shock absorbers and springs Sharona could design. Given the nature of the terrain, even the best sprung vehicle was going to jolt a wounded man agonizingly from time to time, but overall, the ride was remarkably smooth. The ambulances were also far lighter than the freight wagons, which, coupled with their wide tires, gave them a much lower ground pressure and made them far easier for their mule teams to haul.

Despite all of that, the four ambulances attached to Janaki's POW column were undeniably slowing it down. Kinlafia understood that perfectly. What he didn't understand was why Janaki was worried about it. Personally, the Voice would be just as happy if it did take him a little longer to get back to Tajvana. He dreaded the inevitable encounters with reporters, once he got there, almost as much as he dreaded the visit he already knew he was going to have to pay to Shaylar's parents.

"I don't know exactly what's happening back home any more than you do," Janaki said finally, turning back to him. "I do know things are going to have to move quickly, though, and the railhead was most of the way to Fort Salby before all of this began. Even going ahead without us, it's going to take you at least the better part of two months to reach Salby, which means that by the time you get there, the line will certainly be completed. So from there, you can get all the way home in another two or three weeks. But that's still close to three months, Darcel. Three months for the political situation to change and elections to be scheduled. I want you home before that happens, if we can possibly manage it."

Kinlafia frowned ever so slightly. He'd come to accept that Janaki truly believed that Darcel Kinlafia actually had something to offer to his home universe's political leadership at a time like this. And he'd also come to realize that, despite a certain inevitable trepidation, he wanted the job. Yet he couldn't quite shake the suspicion that there was more than simple political calculation behind the crown prince's ardent desire to get him elected to office. Like any Voice, Kinlafia was acutely sensitive to the emotions of those about him, though he would never dream of violating Janaki's privacy by deliberately probing the prince's. But because he was sensitive to them, he knew the other man's focus on his own possible political future carried with it an almost physical (and highly personal) sense of urgency.

He considered asking what lay behind that urgency, but decided—once again—that it would be presumptuous. So instead of worrying about the question he couldn't answer and wouldn't ask, he focused on the rest of Janaki's argument. And the more he thought about it, the more he realized that Janaki, as usual, had a point.

Janaki chan Calirath watched the thoughts moving behind Kinlafia's eyes. He was pretty certain Kinlafia was aware that he hadn't shared all of his reasons for urging the Voice to seek office, and he was grateful to the other man for not pressing him on the point. If Kinlafia had asked, Janaki would have answered, as best he could; the problem was that he still couldn't come up with anything he would consider even remotely satisfactory as an explanation. The Glimpse he'd experienced several times now simply refused to clarify. That was frustrating enough for Janaki, who'd had no choice but to grow accustomed to the fragmentary nature of the visions his Talent presented. It would have been far more frustrating, and probably more than a little frightening, for Kinlafia. Especially since even though it had refused to clarify, it had become even more urgent feeling. And especially given the fact that while having Kinlafia there would be good for Andrin, that didn't necessarily mean it would also be good for Kinlafia.

Whatever it was that the Voice was going to do for Andrin, though, it was important, and Janaki loved his sister. Which meant Parliamentary Representative Kinlafia was as good as elected, as far as Crown Prince Janaki was concerned.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Castenea   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:26 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:Jonathan_S, bkwormlisa

Both of you seem to have a very...flawed...understanding of the tensile strength of steel cable and what that means in terms of ropeway vertical lift capability over distance.

Please see --
--Snip----


Nine hundred fifty meters is 3116.8 feet.

2,300 meters is 7545.93 feet.

The angle of the ropeway cable is a little more than 24 degrees.

This is right in the middle of the range of 1911 ropeway capability that I laid out in my Wednesday Jul 15, 2015 30-60-90 TRIGONOMETRIC FUNCTION ANALYSIS.

The ability to put a ropeway over the Traisum Cut is fundamentally a trivial exercise within the larger civil engineering project of making the Cut.
Yes there are ropeways which drop more than the cliff face in the Triasum cut, but how many towers do those ropeways have? To bring a ropeway down from the top of the cut with acceptable unsupported span requires that the rope way travel across the face of the cliff, likely zig zaging. Building a tower that effectively has the cargo do a 180 degree turn is an engineering design problem for which I do not have a pat answer, but one which I am sure is solvable.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by brnicholas   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:54 pm

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Yet my quotes from HHNF say explicitly that the sidings were put in to support the digging of the Traisum cut and Fort Salby's status as the end of the line. There are a number of ways to read these quotes together including Howard's suggesting that the rail head being referred to here bypasses a rail ferry the Sharonans had been using to move trains across the Red Sea. It seems far more probable to me Janaki is either in error (for Janaki's reliability note that the line was well past Fort Salby by the time Darcel arrived) or referring to something other then the first arrival of trains at Fort Salby. So there was a railroad available to bring supplies in for digging the Traisum cut.

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:Alright, I finally got this downloaded and clipped.

See the Janaki-Kinlafia conversation involving the TTE railway construction to Ft Salby, especially the bold section --

Hells Gate
Chapter 34


...snipped...
"I don't know exactly what's happening back home any more than you do," Janaki said finally, turning back to him. "I do know things are going to have to move quickly, though, and the railhead was most of the way to Fort Salby before all of this began. Even going ahead without us, it's going to take you at least the better part of two months to reach Salby, which means that by the time you get there, the line will certainly be completed. So from there, you can get all the way home in another two or three weeks. But that's still close to three months, Darcel. Three months for the political situation to change and elections to be scheduled. I want you home before that happens, if we can possibly manage it."

...snipped...
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:06 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:Jonathan_S, bkwormlisa

Both of you seem to have a very...flawed...understanding of the tensile strength of steel cable and what that means in terms of ropeway vertical lift capability over distance.

Please see --




Then this --


Komagatake Ropeway

http://www.viator.com/Tokyo-attractions ... 334-a11880

See the so-called Nagano Alps from Japan's highest aerial tramway, the Komogatake Ropeway. The Ropeway opened in 1963 and is a popular way to take in one of the most stunning, scenic views in Japan. The Ropeway runs from the edge of Lake Ashi to the summit of Mount Komagatake, its namesake. The ropeway carries passengers 950 meters (3,116 feet), making it the highest vertical aerial tramway in the country. The ride soars through the clouds to provide views of Japan's highest mountain - Mt. Fuji, as well as the seven Izu Islands, Lake Ashinoko, and expansive coastline."



Then finally this with the ropeway specs --


Komagatake Ropeway

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komagatake_Ropeway

Description

The line, opened in 1967, climbs Mount Kisokoma (木曽駒ヶ岳). Its summit station, Senjōjiki, is known as the station with the highest altitude in the country, 2,611.5 m (8,567.9 ft).


Specifications
System: Aerial tramway, 1 track cable and 2 haulage ropes
Distance: 2.3 kilometres (1.4 mi)
Vertical interval: 950 m (3,117 ft)

Passenger capacity per a cabin: 61
Stations: 2
Time required for single ride: 7 minutes, 30 seconds.



Nine hundred fifty meters is 3116.8 feet.

2,300 meters is 7545.93 feet.

The angle of the ropeway cable is a little more than 24 degrees.

This is right in the middle of the range of 1911 ropeway capability that I laid out in my Wednesday Jul 15, 2015 30-60-90 TRIGONOMETRIC FUNCTION ANALYSIS.

The ability to put a ropeway over the Traisum Cut is fundamentally a trivial exercise within the larger civil engineering project of making the Cut.

And while tower information was surprisingly hard to find a youtube video of part of the ascent shows at least 2 intermediate support towers between the base and the summit.

So it's marginally shorter elevation than the Karys cliff, but handles the load by using relatively shallow rope angle and support towers.


Both of which are possibly if you run it parallel to the cliff face so you could cantilever towers out. But it hardly shows that that length can be hung unsupported perpendicular to the cliff face.
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