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Relative size of combatants

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:13 pm

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As far as the following is concerned --


...Fourth, it tells us that the large Ransaran population of Arcana enjoys a very high standard of living and describes that standard in language clearly intended to evoke the late 20th and early 21st century consumer driven societies of the developed world on Earth.

I believe that the combination of free movement of people and the "almost universally high standard of living amongst Ransarans" indicates that the Ransaran standard of living cannot be the result of exploiting the rest of Arcanan society. If Andarans or Multhari and Shakira caste Mythalans lived at a greatly lower standard of living then Ransarans I would expect large scale immigration from those societies to Ransar as well and we have no evidence for that. Differences in living standards on the scale of what is found today in the EU, or maybe even a little larger are believable, but they can't be much greater then that. That means the vast majority of Arcanans probably live with a quantity and quality of consumer goods comparable to what is available in the Developed World today.

Such a supply of consumer goods requires a very large "relative level of discretionary economic surplus" and thus shows that Arcana can devote a portion of its economy to war comparable to the portion that an industrial society can. If what I have said above is true then the "Hydraulic" versus "Industrial" comparison cannot apply.


The key issue is the Arcania Prime (and highly developed Arcanian colony world) "Magical power grid."

Arcanian developed worlds that have magical power grids can supply things like recharges to sliderways without magical individuals to provide them.

Thus the Ransaran standard of living and "advanced technology" may be a reflection of consumer magic goods developed for the non-magic talented with pure physical user interface having magic power grid recharge of spellware.

This is not true on most Arcanian frontier worlds with sliderways, let alone frontier worlds solely supported by Dragons and arcane-enhanced hippotrain.

Andaran military authorities would not develop or deploy such Ransaran magic technology for combat use on worlds outside the magic grids.

NB: I suspect that Ransaran combat forces on Arcania Prime are the highest firepower simply because they have the most physical interface only magical combat weapons attached to the largest Arcanian magic power grid...which cannot deploy far beyond Arcania Prime or highly developed power grid Arcanian sister colonies.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:09 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:As far as the following is concerned --


...Fourth, it tells us that the large Ransaran population of Arcana enjoys a very high standard of living and describes that standard in language clearly intended to evoke the late 20th and early 21st century consumer driven societies of the developed world on Earth.

I believe that the combination of free movement of people and the "almost universally high standard of living amongst Ransarans" indicates that the Ransaran standard of living cannot be the result of exploiting the rest of Arcanan society. If Andarans or Multhari and Shakira caste Mythalans lived at a greatly lower standard of living then Ransarans I would expect large scale immigration from those societies to Ransar as well and we have no evidence for that. Differences in living standards on the scale of what is found today in the EU, or maybe even a little larger are believable, but they can't be much greater then that. That means the vast majority of Arcanans probably live with a quantity and quality of consumer goods comparable to what is available in the Developed World today.

Such a supply of consumer goods requires a very large "relative level of discretionary economic surplus" and thus shows that Arcana can devote a portion of its economy to war comparable to the portion that an industrial society can. If what I have said above is true then the "Hydraulic" versus "Industrial" comparison cannot apply.


The key issue is the Arcania Prime (and highly developed Arcanian colony world) "Magical power grid."

Arcanian developed worlds that have magical power grids can supply things like recharges to sliderways without magical individuals to provide them.

Thus the Ransaran standard of living and "advanced technology" may be a reflection of consumer magic goods developed for the non-magic talented with pure physical user interface having magic power grid recharge of spellware.

This is not true on most Arcanian frontier worlds with sliderways, let alone frontier worlds solely supported by Dragons and arcane-enhanced hippotrain.

Andaran military authorities would not develop or deploy such Ransaran magic technology for combat use on worlds outside the magic grids.

NB: I suspect that Ransaran combat forces on Arcania Prime are the highest firepower simply because they have the most physical interface only magical combat weapons attached to the largest Arcanian magic power grid...which cannot deploy far beyond Arcania Prime or highly developed power grid Arcanian sister colonies.


One more item to consider. In the attack on Fort Salby, the demolition charge used by the Arcanans applied a lot of force but not a lot of acceleration relative to chemical explosives. Text described the lack of noise attendant with the breeching of the Fort's wall. The lack of noise describes a lot of force but not accelerating fast enough to generate a loud sound wave. That suggests that the devices/spells powered with "accumulators" might face serious limits on how much energy they channel in a given amount of time.

This further suggests that replicating firearms might not be possible for Arcanans. They may simply be unable to release enough force in a sufficiently small amount of time to produce high velocity projectiles.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by brnicholas   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:17 pm

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You are right, I did miss the implications of the last sentence of your post and that may make the parallel work better.

However, your mention in your other post of the magical power grid and how that might change things should be kept in mind. We don't know what is required to put one of those in but we do know, warfare changes economic calculations radically. If Arcana puts a magical power grid in on a world Sharona needs to invade that could change your calculations.

I also suspect that you are overestimating the importance of having a gift in order to use magical devices. We see lots of non-gifted individuals using magical devices. You don't need a gift to be a dragon gunner, everyone gifted or not uses PCs and I don't think you need a gift to be a transport pilot. The requirement of a gift appears to be when the magical device can't be physically handled (implanted chips in battle dragons, gryphons and hummers) or when the device needs charging.

My conclusion though is that we don't really have enough information to be sure.

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:You missed the implications of the last sentence of my post --

The relative fighting power of the non-magically gifted armed Arcanians is so inferior to that of armed Sharonan's that it parallels nicely that mobilization difference between hydraulic and industrial civilizations.


Whether or not Arcania can generate lots of disposable magic based war material and supply. If it is magic talent limited -- see Battle Dragon pilots requiring not just a magical talent, but a SPECIFIC MAGICAL TALENT.

Then they have a mobilization problem compared to Sharona.

Currently, the Arcanian magical war material -- Dragons, unicorns and the implied magical WMD spells apart -- is far inferior to Sharonan and it is not limited in use to only their psi-talents.

NB: The Arcanians need numerical superiority in magically talented individuals at the point of contact to generate similar levels of combat power with industrial weapon equipped Sharonans.

And Sharonan talents mean that equivalent numbers of Shronans will be far better coordinated in their battlefield movements, all other things being equal.

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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:49 pm

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I disagree here --

brnicholas wrote:I also suspect that you are overestimating the importance of having a gift in order to use magical devices. We see lots of non-gifted individuals using magical devices. You don't need a gift to be a dragon gunner, everyone gifted or not uses PCs and I don't think you need a gift to be a transport pilot. The requirement of a gift appears to be when the magical device can't be physically handled (implanted chips in battle dragons, gryphons and hummers) or when the device needs charging.

My conclusion though is that we don't really have enough information to be sure.

Nicholas


As it was stated repeatedly in the text, the small pistol like lightning and fireball crystals required some measure of magical gift to use.

And that the special operations Andarans at the negotiations ambush at Hells Gate all were minimally mage gifted to use them.

This point was made in the first book with larger lightning and fireball staffs -- rifle equivalents -- as well.

That is why it was such a big fat hairy deal was made over the fact that all Sharonan individual weapons and other technology could be used by the non-talented.

Given the above, while we don't know whether infantry of field dragons combat support weapons required mage gifts or not to use...but it would be a good way to bet.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Astelon   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:54 pm

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The bit on power nets indicate a gifted individual is still required for charging accumulators. They may be necessary to start or just monitor the proccess, but it looks like the power net will allow the gifted to do much more before exhaustion sets in.

acute limits on the uniformed personnel who could charge levitation accumulators, especially once they got too far forward to tap the power nets


As for infantry and field dragons chapter 20 of Hell's Gate mentions that Sendahli, a Grantham trooper (no gift), crawled forward to man an infantry Dragon "whose original crew had lain in slaughtered heaps about him while he fired." Seems pretty clear that they require no gift to operate, just a charged accumulator (which requires a gift to charge). I suspect many Arcanan tools function the same way.

The big deal about Sharonian weapons was the mystery of their operation along with its terrifying effectiveness. The Arcanans, Jasak specifically, were surprised that no Sharonian equipment had any trace of gift.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by cadastral   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:19 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Hell's Gate: Chapter 1 wrote:...Doubletons were the rule—indeed, only sixteen triples had ever been found, which was a rate of less than one in ten. But a cluster like Zholhara was of literally incalculable value.


This implies that there are less than 160 universes in the Arcanan sphere after more than 150 years of exploration and less than 200 years.

-SNIP-

You have your math backwards. Less than one in ten means that there are more than 160 Arcanan worlds.

(16 Triples)/(Number of Arcanan worlds) = (rate of Triples)

Therefore

(Number of Arcanan worlds) = (16 Triples)/(Rate of Triples)
16 / 0.1 = 160

Since the rate is less than 1 in 10, the number of worlds must be greater than 160. My own guess would be between 160-170.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by brnicholas   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:42 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:I disagree here --

brnicholas wrote:I also suspect that you are overestimating the importance of having a gift in order to use magical devices. We see lots of non-gifted individuals using magical devices. You don't need a gift to be a dragon gunner, everyone gifted or not uses PCs and I don't think you need a gift to be a transport pilot. The requirement of a gift appears to be when the magical device can't be physically handled (implanted chips in battle dragons, gryphons and hummers) or when the device needs charging.

My conclusion though is that we don't really have enough information to be sure.

Nicholas


As it was stated repeatedly in the text, the small pistol like lightning and fireball crystals required some measure of magical gift to use.

And that the special operations Andarans at the negotiations ambush at Hells Gate all were minimally mage gifted to use them.

This point was made in the first book with larger lightning and fireball staffs -- rifle equivalents -- as well.

That is why it was such a big fat hairy deal was made over the fact that all Sharonan individual weapons and other technology could be used by the non-talented.

Given the above, while we don't know whether infantry of field dragons combat support weapons required mage gifts or not to use...but it would be a good way to bet.


Astelon beat me to mentioning that we had text evidence of garthan using infantry dragons, as far as I am aware those are the only lightning and fireball staffs we have seen in the books so I don't know what you are thinking of as requiring a gift to use when you reference that.

Yes the Special Ops troops were all gifted, it was stated that a gift was required for special ops. That is logical since Special Ops would often require acting in secret and the ability to activate a spell without touching the crystal would often be important.

Yes the dagger stones (pistol equivalents) required a gift to use. We have no idea why that is so, however, and so can't extrapolate from it.

In sum, gifts are needed for certain special weapons where the sarkolis can't be touched and to charge anything magical everything else can apparently be done by a non-gifted.

Nicholas
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by SCC   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:03 pm

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On the Hydraulic Empire thing, Arcania isn't a Hydraulic Empire but the comparison is apt, it's not limited by food supplies in the number of troops, but rather magical stuff. Also note that until the can get some sort of non-magic equalizer to Sharonian weapons Arcanian troops are mainly going to be using magical weapons, dragon most likely
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:05 pm

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Actually what you said in bold below --



Astelon beat me to mentioning that we had text evidence of garthan using infantry dragons, as far as I am aware those are the only lightning and fireball staffs we have seen in the books so I don't know what you are thinking of as requiring a gift to use when you reference that.

Yes the Special Ops troops were all gifted, it was stated that a gift was required for special ops. That is logical since Special Ops would often require acting in secret and the ability to activate a spell without touching the crystal would often be important.

Yes the dagger stones (pistol equivalents) required a gift to use. We have no idea why that is so, however, and so can't extrapolate from it.

In sum, gifts are needed for certain special weapons where the sarkolis can't be touched and to charge anything magical everything else can apparently be done by a non-gifted.

Nicholas



Is 180 degrees out.

Go see the "cut down infantry dragons" used by the Heavy Horse to assault Ft Salby.

Those needed gifted individuals.

Infantry Dragons are crew served support weapons on the order of Sharonan crew served machine guns.

That the Arcanian Military made infantry crew served support weapons usable by the non-gifted shows good foresight and an appreciation of the loss rate of infantry dragon crews in combat.

I suspect "Cut down" regards Heavy Horse carbine-dragons was the weight of physical interface spellwear as well as projector size resulting in cut-down range.

And BTW, Battle Staff =/= Infantry Dragon.

The former was the individual magic weapon equivalent Jasak was comparing to a Sharonan rifle.

As yet, Battle Staves have not had any "on-screen time".
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by brnicholas   » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:Actually what you said in bold below --



...snipped...

In sum, gifts are needed for certain special weapons where the sarkolis can't be touched and to charge anything magical everything else can apparently be done by a non-gifted.

Nicholas



Is 180 degrees out.

Go see the "cut down infantry dragons" used by the Heavy Horse to assault Ft Salby.

Those needed gifted individuals.

Infantry Dragons are crew served support weapons on the order of Sharonan crew served machine guns.

That the Arcanian Military made infantry crew served support weapons usable by the non-gifted shows good foresight and an appreciation of the loss rate of infantry dragon crews in combat.

I suspect "Cut down" regards Heavy Horse carbine-dragons was the weight of physical interface spellwear as well as projector size resulting in cut-down range.

And BTW, Battle Staff =/= Infantry Dragon.

The former was the individual magic weapon equivalent Jasak was comparing to a Sharonan rifle.

As yet, Battle Staves have not had any "on-screen time".


I tried to check what you said here and I can't find the facts you cite in the text. I can't find anywhere where the books say that the "cut down infantry dragons" needed gifted individuals. Can you please provide me with a quote and chapter number?

As for the Battle Staff the only quote I can find is:

He took great care with the long, tubular weapons every man—and woman—had carried. There seemed to be several different types or varieties of them, and he rapidly discovered that they were intricate mechanical marvels, far more complex than any war staff his own people had built. Of course, war staffs—including the infantry and field-dragons which had been developed from them—were actually quite simple, mechanically speaking. They merely provided a place to store battle spells, and a sarkolis-crystal guide tube, down which the destructive spells were channeled on their way to the target.


That says nothing at all about who could use them.

Without some support from the text to show those weapons require gifted individuals in order to be used I am unconvinced.

Nicholas
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