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RTH Official Snippet #3

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by brnicholas   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:25 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:It is clear from this --

brnicholas wrote:When it comes to preparing the logistics of this move I agree he needs to be involved but what makes you think this meeting is about logistics?

As I read it Chan Geraith arrived, with his staff and 3000 troops, somewhere between two days and a week ago to take command of all Sharonan forces at the front. They immediately spread out trying to get the new forces deployed and learn everything they needed to know to command effectively. Once that process was well underway and Chan Geraith had some idea of what he wanted to do, he called his staff together for a meeting where the key things that had been learned (or confirmed) about the situation could be shared with everyone and he could lay out his battle plan, in its bare outline, which is all he has right now, for their input. Since it wasn't immediately poked full of holes they will go out from this meeting and start fleshing it out and making sure it is really workable. The local experts will certainly need to be involved in filling in the details but I don't see why them not being present at this meeting is such a problem since Chan Geraith is doing little more then saying things the locals already know and brainstorming.

Nicholas


...that you are unaware of the mindset of a professional military officer.

The 3rd Dragoon's are roughly in the position of the US Army 1st Cavalry Division about to conduct an amphibious operation and deliberately keeping USMC officers out of the room.

USMC officers who had just fought the enemy, knew the ground where the 1st Cavalry is going and have a 70(+) year history in opposed, combined arms, joint service, amphibious landings to give logistical and operational tips to the "amphibious virgin" 1st Cavalry Division.

The Portal Authority Armed Forces (PAAF) specialize in projecting military power over thousands of miles, and at the end of that projection they build a fort and map the surrounding area for water and other terrain features a the fort and on the path to it, to speed the economic development of that area.

The 3rd Dragoon's are going over several thousands of miles of howling wilderness that PAAF forces have pioneered and know where ALL THE WATER SOURCES FOR HORSES AND OTHER DRAFT ANIMALS ARE.

A file is not the man and a map is not the terrain.

Any 3rd Dragoon's force, which ever portal chain they are going up, will have a heavy presence of PAAF pathfiners, guides and logistical officers.

The passage where General-Captain Chan Geraith lays out his thoughts to his staff shows too shrewd a man not to have PAAF officers in the meeting to begin working out protocol and procedure for using those PAAF pathfiners, guides and logistical officers to move his vanguard force...and in particular having a very motivated Regiment-Captain chan Skirthik in the room to lay that out.

The lack of PAAF presence in that scene utterly breaks the suspension of disbelief every author needs in his stories.

This is a classic "Hitler with the sweet disposition of Lassie" alternate history mistake.


Yes, I am unaware of the mindset of a professional military officer and that may be why it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief. Yet you say the PAAF officers need to be their to "begin working out protocol and procedure." Yet any type of detailed planning is precisely what is not happening in the meeting we see. Even the issue we have been thinking was impossible for years, how are they going to keep the Bisons supplied with fuel and water, isn't discussed. Compared with that how the PAAF members of the point force will interact with the rest of the point force or where the point force will get water is small stuff.

And how do you know he isn't there anyway? I don't see a list of who attended this meeting.

Nicholas
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:06 pm

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Professional officer rule of thumb -- Commanders use only 1/3 of the time available for planning.

They give 2/3 to the people underneath them.

Not including the PAAF and particularly the PAAF local Regiment-Captain violated that in a most spectacular fashion.
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Castenea   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:13 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:Ft. Salby commands the approached to the cut on the Traisum side of the portal. That was why the Arcanians wanted it as key terrain to plug the approach up chain.

As for General-Captain Chan Geraith reluctance to go down the cut, that you may not remember the Heavy Cavalry pods and the Arcanian combat engineers in them doesn't mean General-Captain Chan Geraith has.

General-Captain Chan Geraith has to consider the possibility of a quick air mobile operation by the Arcanians to place a Cavalry levitation pod worth of demo spells equipped combat engineers to drop large parts of the cut on the heads of his troops in column march down the cut.

The way to take the cut is to clear the high ground above it and garrison it with Sharonan heavy weapons.

Whether that has been done yet hasn't been shown.

I believe that the Sharonians have enough artillery to blast the Arcanans out of the way through though the cut, but chan Geraith is not doing so for several very good reasons. 1) Sharonians do not currently know the range of the various types of dragons, thus are assuming that their range is significantly greater than truth. 2) the cut there is the type of terrain where a well led company can stop a division. 3) there is a workable alternative available.

I consider it very likely that the high ground around the cut has not been secured by Sharonian forces, yet. Securing this would do two very useful things for chan Geraith, keep 1000 Harshu looking at Ft. Salby, and secure the fort against future attacks.
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:50 am

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Castenea,

War has a momentum independent of the will of the actors.

This is one of the reasons for the military term of art "Normal wastage". Which was invented and applied to the casualties and material losses of military forces in contact on a "quiet front" during war that are independent of attack orders of either side.

The Sharonan's will in no way tolerate any Arcanian attempts to beseige Ft. Salby within artillery range of the fort on the Traisum side of the portal.

The targeted killing of Sharonan Voices by the Arcanians and the knowing sacrificial death of the Calirath Crown Prince to save lives of the Ft. Salby garrison means the Sharonan forces in contact are in a horribly vengful mood and will take every opportunity, other an obvious parley, to kill Arcanians within reach.

And the Sharonan mood is set to get far worse as in about 9 weeks book time, as Captain-General Chan Geraith's forces are going to uncover the torture and mass killing of Sharonan POW by Arcanian Commander of 1000 Carthos troops.

This will include a Child-Voice's transmission of the death of his Voice teacher -- who he was in contact with when he was executed -- and watching his father, who pretended to be the Voice the Arcanian's were looking for, to save his son's life.

Which brings up the following --


"War is the ultimate moral solvent."

-- George Will.


The history of why America entered WWI, and America's about face on the subject of unrestricted submarines warfare in the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor is instructive enough on that point.

George will's quote above very much applies to Chan Geraith orders to "kill all the Arcanian pickets"

That Chan Geraith obliquely said "kill all the Arcanian pickets" does not mean that the killing will be limited to Arcanian pickets at the time Sharonan soldiers attack them, nor especially after Arcanian atrocities become known.

Chan Geraith will be a very long way away from his forward cavalry troops.

And those troopers will be close to Arcanians, many of whom are guilty of atrocities.

And when the child-voice, whose Voice teacher and father both died for him, transmits his tale to the Sharonan Voice network, even Chan Geraith will have a hard time even wanting to stop the retribution troopers at the cutting edge will unleash.
.
Last edited by Mil-tech bard on Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ping Peter re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:39 pm

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No, Peter, you have misread the terrain.
Fort Salby is on the *Sharonan* side of the Front.
It is "several" miles from the Portal,
which Arcana holds. Those miles, which include the
Traisum side of the cut, are No Man's Land, I ween.

When Arcana's Zydor Dragoons & attached infantry
battalion were thrown back from Salby, the survivors
did *not* set up a position beyond the fort, to
block Sharona's supply lines. Well might they have
feared, that had they tried that, the Salby garrison
(which had whipped and routed them already)
alone might have been able to pursue and complete
their destruction, even before the oncoming Sharonan
re-enforcements (chan Geraith's First Brigade) came
up to complete the job.
Instead, the surviving Zydors returned to their LZ,
so that the Transport Dragons who had brought them,
could return them to their base - in Karys.

Therefore, chan Geraith *did* "simply move to Fort
Salby directly." He talks to chan S., and to Markan,
whenever he pleases.

Chan G.'s "concern" is "fighting his way" *from*
the fort through the Cut and the Portal!
A difficult, probably bloody, job, ending with the
enemy retreating in front of him into the open plains
of Karys where they can maneuver.
Instead he will use his First Brigade, supported by
Markan's Brigade and the Salby garrison,
to threaten that attack so as to distract the Arcanans,
while his Second Brigade travels almost 20,000 miles
in the hope of cutting the Arcanans Line Of Supply And
Communications before they realize their danger and
run back to New Uromath.

Howard T. Map-addict

PeterZ wrote:Then why not simply move to Fort Salby directly? Why do the end around through the parallel line? Chan Geraith seemed awfully concerned about fighting his way to the Fort. Enough so that he considers the offensives through the second front.

No. The Arcanans control the ramp and with the ramp access to Ft Salby.

Mil-tech bard wrote:I disagree with this --
(continued below)

PeterZ had written:
Unless the Arcanans prevent the two forces from
communicating in person. Chan Geraith spoke with
Chan Skirthik at Crown Prince Janaki's funeral.
That could have a special exception to the Arcanans'
deployment preventing such joining of forces,
even for meetings.

My read of the first three snippets suggest that
the Arcanan force can prevent forces from moving
up or down the Cut. It stands to reason that moving
military forces through the Cut will be an invitation
for an attack. Not sure if anything else is
allowed through or not.

PeterZ

M-t B's reply continued:
The Sharonans own the cut.

It is all on the Traisum side of the gate, so distance viewer directed Sharonan mortars will kill any Arcanian dragon delivered observation party operating there.
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Ping Mil-tech re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:03 pm

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Mil-tech, (since we are using first names) ;)

I find your arguments, and your supporting data,
accurate - as far as they go.

I find that you have overlooked two (2) points,
one of which supports your reasoning *strongly,*
while the other, I deem, refutes it.

The First Point is the distance to Kelsayr through
Traisum itself, given as about 10,000 miles.
This increases the Total Distance via Kelsayr to
Nairsom to almost 20,000 miles, more than half of
which is within Traisum.
The distance via Karys is still 4,056 Miles from Salby.

However, the Second Point is:
The route from Sharona via Kelsayr to Nairsom,
**Does Not Proceed By Way Of Fort Salby!**
I ought to have made this Point clear in my previous
two responses; I beg pardon for not doing so.

The route from Sharona passes through Salym-universe,
from Losaltha (Barcelona) to Tharkoma (Sofia).
The Gate there leads to Traisum-universe, entering
somewhere in the Ethiopian Highlands.

We have been shown the route that leads to Salbyton
and KARYS, from the E. H. to the Arabian Sea by rail,
then continued by rail (instead of water) around
the Horn of Africa to Bab El Mandeb Strait, and
then up the Arabian Red Sea Coast (*east* of the
Red Sea) to Salby & its Gate, and through SalbyGate
into Karys.

The route to KELSAYR has been described only in part:
the length of the Mediterranian & the width of the
Atlantic, making a 6,000 mile Water Gap, plus about
4,000 land miles, reaching a Gate "somewhere" in
North America.
We are further told that a Seaport has been made at
the Southeast corner of the Med (Egypt) to build ships
to cross that Water Gap. Location of that Seaport has
not been given. Obvious places are Alexandria (for
its good harbor) and Port Said (near the Red Sea).

We are *not* told how that Route gets from Tharkoma
Gate to the Seaport.
I deem the most obvious route to be *by railroad down
the Nile* (near all that fresh water for most of it).
That railroad, I ween, would separate from the Karys
RR just past Tharkoma Gate, and head directly to the
Nile by the most convenient and shortest way. Then it
would follow the most convenient route to the Seaport.

Such a route would pass far from Salbyton,
and on the other (west) side of the Red Sea.
Officers at Fort Tharkoma would know more about it
than chan Skithrik probably would.

Other routes from Tharkoma to Seaport are possible,
of course. A Water Route up the Finger (Red) Sea,
to Suez and Port Said, might stop near Salby to refuel.
In that case the Finger Sea would be part of the
Water Gap. We are not told that it is, when we are
told about Mbisi & Vandor, but arguments-from-omission
are too weak to prove anything.

Or, the Round-The-Horn RR might continue up the Red Sea
Coast all the way to Suez and Port Said, making one
route until it gets to Bab El Mandeb.
That route, along the Red Sea's west coast,
is very hilly for a railroad.
There is no railroad there today, in Our Time Line.
It would be on the other (wrong) side of the Red Sea
from Salbyton.
Still it might be close enough to Salby,
for chan S. to study it.
How much detailed knowledge chan Geraith would need,
about an existing railroad far from enemy lines,
is a different question.

I have another reason no Salby officer was at that
particular meeting, which I'll give in my next post.

HTM

Mil-tech bard wrote:Howard, in reply to this --

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:reply at bottom, in accord with Mil-tech bard. HTM

M-t b, I numbered your points for easy reference.

1 No, I used that point.
That is what "the long way around" means.
I believe that I was the first Multiverse Fan
here to use the word "loop" to describe chains
that branch and then rejoin.
"Nairsom Loop" I called this one.

2 Traisum is the "origin universe" of both sides
of this loop-chain. You are right that the route
from Ft. Tharkoma, Salym, via Salbyton and Karys,
to Nairsom and Resyn, is shorter than the route west
of the Finger Sea, across the Mbisi Sea, Vandor Ocean,
and then through Kelsayr.
But chan Geraith will be using the longer route!

3 Fort Salby, and chan Skrithik, will be bypassed.
The Big Idea is to continue to face Harshu and his
Arcanans at the Traisum Cut, sending no one but
scouts beyond it, until Second Brigade (reinforced)
comes up from behind them.
Skrithik's special knowledge won't be used.

{snip - htm}

HTM



Howard.

Revisiting the basic gate geography:

Karys chain -- 4056 straight line to Hell's Gate

Kelsayr chain -- 8266 straight line miles to Hell's Gate

Karys chain looping distance in into Kelsayr chain universes

Ft Salby to Nairsom via Thermyn -- 4390 miles to Nairsom/Resym gate gate vs. 6210 via Kelsayr

Ft Salby to Resym via Thermyn -- 7140 miles to Resym/Lashai gate vs. 3460 miles via Kelsayr.

So, given above in terms of support distance, the following gates were all in closer support distance from Ft. Salby than the Traisum/Kelsayr gate fort.

Nairsom/Resym gate
Thermyn/Nairsom gate
New Uromath/Thermyn gate
Hell's Gate/New Uromath gate

The 3rd Dragoon's route -- gate wise -- to Hell's Gate goes as follows via the Kelsayr chain

Traisum(3rd Gate)/Kelsayr
Kelsayr/Lashai
Lashai/Resym
Resym/Nairsom
Nairsom/Thermyn
Thermyn/New Uromath
New Uromath/Hell's Gate

Given the above, QED, not having Regiment-Captain Chan Skrithik or his executive officer for logistical reasons in that scene is a "too many battle dragons" class problem.
Last edited by Howard T. Map-addict on Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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where Salby officers were re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:13 pm

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Very possibly, chan Skrithik was asleep!

He had had a busy and intense three months,
after he learned of First Contact With Violence,
climaxed by three days of prep for vicious attack,
and then a Battle For Life And Freedom!
He was severely wounded, losing the use of one arm,
with much pain, and yet he had to retain command,
because the PAAF had no other officer above the rank
of company-captain, and the Uromathans did not know
the fort and its regular garrison well.

The next day (after a painful night's sleep),
or perhaps later that same day, he made the effort to
meet with Arcanan officers (although he could have
yielded that duty to Markan, Garsal, or Vargan).
There he was told that his wound could be Healed,
and he eventually chose to trust the Healer, so it was.
We have seen Jathmar and Shaylar Healed,
and they both required much sleep afterwards.

The other PAAF officers at Salby had undergone much
the same ordeal (with individual variations).
Markan & Co. had had a major change in their thinking,
before they ever left Camlan Base. Then they had a
hard train ride, through many time zones and climates.
One of their Difficult Changes was shown to us.
Then they had the problem of living in Peace, and
Alliance, with their hereditary enemies.
The Attack might have come as a relief, of sorts,
but the battle began horrendously, with attacks by
wyverns, dragons, and impossible horses and weapons.

The Relief by chan Gerith must have been such a big
relief, that the letdown would make them sleep for
a week!

I am sure that Skrithik and Markan had already reported
much, and would report much more in the future.
At the time of this particular meeting,
they were all Off Duty, and asleep.

I Note also that this scene has the Purpose of
introducing the Command Crew of 3rd Dragoon Division,
as a unit, to the Readers.
I speculate that this is why Weber & Presby chose this
particular meeting to show us.

HTM

Mil-tech bard wrote:The more I re-read snippets #2 and especially #3 below, the more wrong they feel because of a simple question.

Where are Regiment-Captain chan Skrithik and Lord of Horse Sunlord Markan in this meeting.

Together they command forces at Ft. Salby as big as the 3rd Dragoons.

Even if they had other pressing duties, their representatives should have been in this snippet expressing points about the gate's terrain and their capability to meet Arcanian forces.

IMO, this is a much of a problem as the number of surviving Battle Dragons.

Mil-tech bard
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Re: where Salby officers were re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:14 pm

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Posts: 6228
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Now you all have identified another part that the authors have to rewrite!

Bother! This book will be delayed yet again. Sigh

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Very possibly, chan Skrithik was asleep!

He had had a busy and intense three months,
after he learned of First Contact With Violence,
climaxed by three days of prep for vicious attack,
and then a Battle For Life And Freedom!
He was severely wounded, losing the use of one arm,
with much pain, and yet he had to retain command,
because the PAAF had no other officer above the rank
of company-captain, and the Uromathans did not know
the fort and its regular garrison well.

The next day (after a painful night's sleep),
or perhaps later that same day, he made the effort to
meet with Arcanan officers (although he could have
yielded that duty to Markan, Garsal, or Vargan).
There he was told that his wound could be Healed,
and he eventually chose to trust the Healer, so it was.
We have seen Jathmar and Shaylar Healed,
and they both required much sleep afterwards.

The other PAAF officers at Salby had undergone much
the same ordeal (with individual variations).
Markan & Co. had had a major change in their thinking,
before they ever left Camlan Base. Then they had a
hard train ride, through many time zones and climates.
One of their Difficult Changes was shown to us.
Then they had the problem of living in Peace, and
Alliance, with their hereditary enemies.
The Attack might have come as a relief, of sorts,
but the battle began horrendously, with attacks by
wyverns, dragons, and impossible horses and weapons.

The Relief by chan Gerith must have been such a big
relief, that the letdown would make them sleep for
a week!

I am sure that Skrithik and Markan had already reported
much, and would report much more in the future.
At the time of this particular meeting,
they were all Off Duty, and asleep.

I Note also that this scene has the Purpose of
introducing the Command Crew of 3rd Dragoon Division,
as a unit, to the Readers.
I speculate that this is why Weber & Presby chose this
particular meeting to show us.

HTM

Mil-tech bard wrote:The more I re-read snippets #2 and especially #3 below, the more wrong they feel because of a simple question.

Where are Regiment-Captain chan Skrithik and Lord of Horse Sunlord Markan in this meeting.

Together they command forces at Ft. Salby as big as the 3rd Dragoons.

Even if they had other pressing duties, their representatives should have been in this snippet expressing points about the gate's terrain and their capability to meet Arcanian forces.

IMO, this is a much of a problem as the number of surviving Battle Dragons.

Mil-tech bard
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Re: where Salby officers were re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:52 pm

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Posts: 1392
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Why need they rewrite anything, Peter?
We already know that everyone must sleep sometimes.
Everything I wrote, I deduced from what they already wrote.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:Now you all have identified another part that the authors have to rewrite!

Bother! This book will be delayed yet again. Sigh
PZ

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Very possibly, chan Skrithik was asleep!


HTM

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Re: where Salby officers were re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:32 am

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Location: Colorado

I suppose that sounds too much like "the dog ate my homework" to me. Might not be fair, but at first blush I was asleep and all my subordinates were too sounds like an excuse. These people need first hand info and they aren't getting it at this time.

That meeting might well have happened earlier, but I doubt that meeting included all of chan Geraith's commanders. Having those local PAAF officers present would have been helpful to say the least.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Why need they rewrite anything, Peter?
We already know that everyone must sleep sometimes.
Everything I wrote, I deduced from what they already wrote.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:Now you all have identified another part that the authors have to rewrite!

Bother! This book will be delayed yet again. Sigh
PZ

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