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RTH Official Snippet #3

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Mon May 25, 2015 12:51 pm

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Sharonan logistical Frame of Reference post #5 --

The issue with water gaps is that old style pre-ISO container (AKA "BOX") break bulk freighters unloaded at a rate of 20-30 tons per hour per hatch.

Loading was a fraction of that pace as the empty space of a break bulk freighter had to be braced with (usually wooden) structure, cushioning and dunnage for whatever load was being placed into it.

A 10,000 ton freighter would have five hatches and that was the largest economical for government freighters of WW2.

See:

S.S. Lane Victory Virtual Tour
Welcome to the Main Deck and Cargo Handling Gear!

http://www.lanevictory.org/laneVtour_mast_boom.php

The ship also has a pair of jumbo booms that was used for loading heavier cargo. There is a 50 ton boom mounted on the aft of the main-mast to service cargo hatch #3. There is a 30 ton boom mounted forward of the mizzen mast to service cargo hatch #4. The jumbo booms require four winches to operate both up/down and left/right movements. These booms are currently installed on the S.S. Lane Victory but not certified for use as the Coast Guard generally considers shoreside or floating cranes safer for loading/unloading heavy cargoes.


Commercial freighters of the time were 50% to 60% the size of S.S. Lane Victory and ran to four hatches because of the costs of the freighter sitting in port idle while loading operations were happening.

Wartime governments could through huge numbers of people at government freighters in a way commercial operators could not.

It took the Vietnam War to kick off the "Container Revolution" we live with today.

The Sharonan's have a huge incentive for multi-modal containers, especially with the 6K mile Pacific water gap in their supply line.

They have not been shown any containerized shipping infrastructure, despite much of their transportation system being center stage, so I assume they don't have ISO style containers.

I have not seen enough of the Arcanians to make a call on their logistics.

Their slider-ways, magic levitation loaded ships, magic stand-alone personal computers and Dragon and horse pulled pod transports suggest they may be closer to such a containerized shipping package system.
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Links re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue May 26, 2015 9:40 am

Howard T. Map-addict
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1392
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:47 am
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viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6957
goes to Snippet #1.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6982
goes to Snippet #2.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7075
goes to Snippet #4.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3227
goes to List of All Military People named,
with more links to other lists:
Civilians, Places, Outworlds, Glossary Ommisions.

HTM
Last edited by Howard T. Map-addict on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue May 26, 2015 9:50 am

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If Second Brigade, Third Dragoon Division,
is scheduled to reach Ft. Salby by "mid-week,"
then it probably has not reached Ft. Losaltha yet.
It can go directly to Kelsayr, without needing to
backtrack.
One question: will any elements of its train,
such as heavy artillery, split off from the rest of
the train and go to Salbyton anyway?
Second question: will any units already at Salbyton
take the returning train, and backtrack to Losaltha
to meet and reinforce Second Brigade?

Third question: has chan Geraith yet learned about
Arcanan *reconnaissance* gryphons? Does he yet know
that they are watching and recording all arrivals
and departures from Fort Salby?

HTM
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by brnicholas   » Tue May 26, 2015 3:52 pm

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I think not, which means since the train was full of their equipment the Arcanans have seen the Bisons. I don't think it will matter though, I doubt they have the context to figure out what they do.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:...snipped...

Third question: has chan Geraith yet learned about
Arcanan *reconnaissance* gryphons? Does he yet know
that they are watching and recording all arrivals
and departures from Fort Salby?

HTM
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Wed May 27, 2015 10:44 am

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In order --

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:If Second Brigade, Third Dragoon Division, is scheduled to reach Ft. Salby by "mid-week," then it probably has not reached Ft. Losaltha yet.
It can go directly to Kelsayr, without needing to
backtrack.


Given Voices and a decision, that sound's right.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:One question: will any elements of its train, such as heavy artillery, split off from the rest of the train and go to Salbyton anyway?



The question boils down to issues logistics and world building.

Are there enough train engines, are there enough of the proper sidings and rail yards to switch out the train configuration, and what is the cost of time of doing any of the above prior to the Salbyton TTE rail switching yard.

IOW, this is strictly up to the author(s).

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Second question: will any units already at Salbyton take the returning train, and backtrack to Losaltha to meet and reinforce Second Brigade?



Again, this is strictly up to the author.


Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Third question: has chan Geraith yet learned about Arcanan *reconnaissance* gryphons? Does he yet know that they are watching and recording all arrivals and departures from Fort Salby?

HTM



As others up topic pointed out, you have to know what you are looking at to take effective action.

Emperor Zindel and his daughter Adrian had visions of Arcanian dragons at Ft. Salby for weeks prior to the attack, but only Janaki's death glimpse could effectively evaluate and take action about them.

It is asking the impossible of Arcanan reconnaissance gryphon image analysts to see and understand a Bison's combat power prior to its application to Arcanian military forces.

They are image intelligence analysts, not death glimpsing precognitives, after all.
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by SCC   » Wed May 27, 2015 3:41 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:
Howard T. Map-addict wrote:One question: will any elements of its train, such as heavy artillery, split off from the rest of the train and go to Salbyton anyway?



The question boils down to issues logistics and world building.

Are there enough train engines, are there enough of the proper sidings and rail yards to switch out the train configuration, and what is the cost of time of doing any of the above prior to the Salbyton TTE rail switching yard.

IOW, this is strictly up to the author(s).

I'm going to have to say NO. I've got the feeling that a single brigade is being shipped on only one train, so breaking it up like that probably isn't possible
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Thu May 28, 2015 11:09 am

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As far as this --

SCC wrote:I'm going to have to say NO. I've got the feeling that a single brigade is being shipped on only one train, so breaking it up like that probably isn't possible


The question of one train is less relevant that how many engines are on these one (or more) trains.

Once alerted by a voice message, any siding on the main line short of Salbyton will allow the train(s) to stop. Decouple any engine(s) and then recouple with however many cars are needed to go back, as opposed to all the way to the Salbyton rail yard.

BTW, please carefully note the flexibility of Sharonan logistics here, due to their communications, as compared to a flight of Dragons in-transit.

Any Arcanian communication by their mage-engineered humming bird messengers has to chase moving Dragons and get ahead of them to a prearranged logistical stop in order to redirect them in transit.

In a lot of ways mobile Dragon forces are like sailing ships in that they are out of communications for long periods.

Armored forces are all about their ability to shoot, move and communicate.

The Sharonans have shoot and communicate.

The Arcanians have movement, up to the limits of their Dragons, unicorns and uber-clysdales. Those limits don't work real well within the artillery and small arms range of Sharonan forces.
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"message for moving dragon!" re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Thu May 28, 2015 11:58 am

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ISTR that Arcanans send their messenger-birds to
fixed locations, pre-programed into the bird's
Control Crystal. This works for messages to fixed places.
The message to 500 Klian went to Fort Rycharn,
to the Receiving Station there,
and then was taken to where he was, his office.

A hummer-handler cannot know were a moving dragon is,
or where it is going. A dragon pilot will need to send
the first hummer, saying "these are the coordinates
where I have stopped." Then and only then, the Return
Message can be sent to him.

But if the dragons have agreed to stop at a known place,
then a hummer can be sent there to await them.
All the dragons must do is arrive there, instead of
somewhere else, or of stopping on the way.

So Mil-tech Bard understates this problem.

HTM

Mil-tech bard wrote:[snip - htm]
BTW, please carefully note the flexibility of Sharonan logistics here, due to their communications, as compared to a flight of Dragons in-transit.

Any Arcanian communication by their mage-engineered humming bird messengers has to chase moving Dragons and get ahead of them to a prearranged logistical stop in order to redirect them in transit.

In a lot of ways mobile Dragon forces are like sailing ships in that they are out of communications for long periods.
[snip]
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Re: "message for moving dragon!" re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Thu May 28, 2015 12:38 pm

Mil-tech bard
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 256
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 1:25 pm

Regards this --

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:ISTR that Arcanans send their messenger-birds to
fixed locations, pre-programed into the bird's
Control Crystal. This works for messages to fixed places.
The message to 500 Klian went to Fort Rycharn,
to the Receiving Station there,
and then was taken to where he was, his office.

A hummer-handler cannot know were a moving dragon is,
or where it is going. A dragon pilot will need to send
the first hummer, saying "these are the coordinates
where I have stopped." Then and only then, the Return
Message can be sent to him.

But if the dragons have agreed to stop at a known place,
then a hummer can be sent there to await them.
All the dragons must do is arrive there, instead of
somewhere else, or of stopping on the way.

So Mil-tech Bard understates this problem.

HTM


It is hard for people raised in the telecommunications age to understand the implications of messenger traffic.

Arcanian messages in crystals can be full blown 3-D holographic sound and light shows with lots text, logistical data, with still and moving images...but they still move at the speed of the bio-engineered humming bird to pre-established positions.

Acania's inability to coordinate moving armed forces outside a pre-arranged plan is non-existent.

This had huge implications in facing the Sharonan armored attacks.

Arcania has no planning template to deal with either Sharonan armored forces nor with talent based reconnaissance/counter-reconnaissance capabilities when Sharona is on the offensive.

NB: Life form tracker talents, distance viewer talents, tracker talents, flicker teleportation talents and voice talents give Sharona superior close and deep ground reconnaissance plus tracking capabilities. Arcanian troops can run from Sharonan pursuit, but they cannot shake that pursuit.

Arcanian infantry won't be able to hold positions against Sharonan steam-tanks, nor retreat after close contact fast enough to disengage them, nor be able to shake Sharonan pursuers without dragon airlift if terrain does allow that.

Arcanian heavy and light cavalry can outdistance Bison steam tank pursuit...in the short term. Whether the heavy horse can maintain a 15mph retreat as long as a Steam tanks/trucks over a day or more pursuit distance is a very different question.

And neither Arcanian light nor heavy cavalry can outrun Sharonan distance viewer directed artillery.

Sharonan self-propelled artillery with talent fire direction -- when it arrives -- is the Arcanian ground force's worst nightmare.
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Re: RTH Official Snippet #3
Post by SCC   » Thu May 28, 2015 2:45 pm

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Commander

Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:04 am

Mil-tech bard wrote:As far as this --

SCC wrote:I'm going to have to say NO. I've got the feeling that a single brigade is being shipped on only one train, so breaking it up like that probably isn't possible


The question of one train is less relevant that how many engines are on these one (or more) trains.

Once alerted by a voice message, any siding on the main line short of Salbyton will allow the train(s) to stop. Decouple any engine(s) and then recouple with however many cars are needed to go back, as opposed to all the way to the Salbyton rail yard.

Well I'm basing this off the scene where the trip starts for First Brigade, and from the sounds of things the whole brigade was packed into one train with only two engines.

And long term the Bison's will win, I'm pretty sure they'll keep going over night. Heck even if they can't unless the cav their pursuing an keep in supply their need to spend a LOT of time graving the horses
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