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Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Eagleeye   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:40 pm

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Another out-of-leftfield (or centerfield) possibility
is for more Portals linking S & A to be discovered,
or to open, creating routes between S & A that are
shorter than 135,000 miles.
This distance is too long for anything but border wars.

Hell's Gate has seven Portals.
I would not be surprised if several of the other five
led back to S & A, and by shorter routes. Then there
are the Portals that lead to other Human worlds.

HTM



I wonder if the universe the Sharonan "Fallen timbers"-delegation fled to is one of the universes with a shorter way back to Sharona ... maybe via a different chain. Ok, first they have to survive the jungle, but assuming they do and a Sharonan expeditionary force can use that shortcut ...
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by jeremyr   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:19 pm

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:
Hell's Gate has seven Portals.
I would not be surprised if several of the other five
led back to S & A, and by shorter routes. Then there
are the Portals that lead to other Human worlds.

HTM



I think they are links to other civilizations. It wouldn't surprise me if the group that set the backfire and went thru another portal on Hell's gate world meets up with another civilization exploring their universes.
You have to assume that all the portals in the worlds discovered so far are known. I don't see how there can be a shorter way, unless a new portal forms.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by SCC   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:21 pm

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Another out-of-leftfield (or centerfield) possibility
is for more Portals linking S & A to be discovered,
or to open, creating routes between S & A that are
shorter than 135,000 miles.
This distance is too long for anything but border wars.

Hell's Gate has seven Portals.
I would not be surprised if several of the other five
led back to S & A, and by shorter routes. Then there
are the Portals that lead to other Human worlds.

I'm pretty sure that Hell's Gate is the lynch pin where multiple streams connect, each portal in that universe leads to a different human civilization.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Keith_w   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:08 pm

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SCC wrote:
Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Another out-of-leftfield (or centerfield) possibility
is for more Portals linking S & A to be discovered,
or to open, creating routes between S & A that are
shorter than 135,000 miles.
This distance is too long for anything but border wars.

Hell's Gate has seven Portals.
I would not be surprised if several of the other five
led back to S & A, and by shorter routes. Then there
are the Portals that lead to other Human worlds.

I'm pretty sure that Hell's Gate is the lynch pin where multiple streams connect, each portal in that universe leads to a different human civilization.


And there is what? 8 portals on that world - leading to 6 sub-series streams of books in the hells gate stream.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Thorby   » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:02 pm

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brnicholas wrote:
The problem is that three times Sharona has tried to talk to Arcana. Three times Arcana has responded by attacking Sharona. Once could be explained away, twice maybe. Three times is policy! Facing an enemy who responds to negotiation with military force the only logical response for Sharona is to demand unconditional surrender. Negotiation isn't an option because Arcana will just use it as a cover to prepare to attack, for blowing trust to bits using Skirvon's honor guard in their attack is worse then torture. The Arcanan atrocities will only add emotional punch to the logical arguments for demanding unconditional surrender.

[/quote][/quote]

There are significant differences between these contacts. The first two were mistakes/errors due to a single, relatively junior individual. The third was a political decision by a senior officer with an agenda that was then promulgated by a series of senior officers at the cutting edge. This one will be much more difficult to explain or rationalize. It extends beyond the Mythalans and involves the Andarans as well. This could lead to a Civil War in Arcana because too many individuals will be tainted.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by bkwormlisa   » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:52 pm

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Welcome to the forums!

Yes, there is quite a difference. The problem is, Sharona doesn't know that. Shaylar told them that the force pinning her team deliberately chose to shoot their leader in the throat. Nothing she said indicated that it was a mistake by a junior officer because she didn't know that's what it was. She assumed it was the order. Chan Baskay and Arthag discuss it at one point and even though Skirvon is telling the truth as he knows it that the officer in charge tried to avoid the massacre, they conclude that Skirvon only believes that because the officer in question lied to his superiors.

With Thalmayr, those that were there saw that the officer on the spot chose to fire on a man holding a parley flag. They have no way to know whether or not it was in accordance with his orders or standing policy. And chan Tesh assumed at the time that Thalmayr's actions proved that the first massacre wasn't an accident. I doubt that the subtle nuances of "it was a junior officer that obviously wasn't a very fast thinker" Arthag knew made it back home. I also don't know what if anything Skirvon told them about what happened from Thalmayr's point of view, but since he wasn't trying to defuse things, I doubt it was anything that would make public opinion on Sharona happier with Arcana.

Then the Arcanans asked for negotiations and treacherously attacked in the middle of them. The Sharonians know nothing about Arcanan communication systems. They have a three week two-way communications loop and it's been two months. They would have no way to realize that word of the very first encounter hasn't even reached Arcanan high command, so it's natural to assume that the attack was authorized by those on high.

In short, Sharona has no reason to believe those three incidents are anything other than standard Arcanan policy and thus they exemplify just how militant and untrustworthy Arcanans are. Just what they'll think if they ever learn Arcanan had a civil war over said encounters is probably worth pages and pages of debate on these boards.
Thorby wrote:
brnicholas wrote:
The problem is that three times Sharona has tried to talk to Arcana. Three times Arcana has responded by attacking Sharona. Once could be explained away, twice maybe. Three times is policy! Facing an enemy who responds to negotiation with military force the only logical response for Sharona is to demand unconditional surrender. Negotiation isn't an option because Arcana will just use it as a cover to prepare to attack, for blowing trust to bits using Skirvon's honor guard in their attack is worse then torture. The Arcanan atrocities will only add emotional punch to the logical arguments for demanding unconditional surrender.



There are significant differences between these contacts. The first two were mistakes/errors due to a single, relatively junior individual. The third was a political decision by a senior officer with an agenda that was then promulgated by a series of senior officers at the cutting edge. This one will be much more difficult to explain or rationalize. It extends beyond the Mythalans and involves the Andarans as well. This could lead to a Civil War in Arcana because too many individuals will be tainted.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Thorby   » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:12 am

Thorby
Midshipman

Posts: 9
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[quote="bkwormlisa"]Welcome to the forums!

Yes, there is quite a difference. The problem is, Sharona doesn't know that. Shaylar told them that the force pinning her team deliberately chose to shoot their leader in the throat. Nothing she said indicated that it was a mistake by a junior officer because she didn't know that's what it was. She assumed it was the order. Chan Baskay and Arthag discuss it at one point and even though Skirvon is telling the truth as he knows it that the officer in charge tried to avoid the massacre, they conclude that Skirvon only believes that because the officer in question lied to his superiors.

With Thalmayr, those that were there saw that the officer on the spot chose to fire on a man holding a parley flag. They have no way to know whether or not it was in accordance with his orders or standing policy. And chan Tesh assumed at the time that Thalmayr's actions proved that the first massacre wasn't an accident. I doubt that the subtle nuances of "it was a junior officer that obviously wasn't a very fast thinker" Arthag knew made it back home. I also don't know what if anything Skirvon told them about what happened from Thalmayr's point of view, but since he wasn't trying to defuse things, I doubt it was anything that would make public opinion on Sharona happier with Arcana.

Then the Arcanans asked for negotiations and treacherously attacked in the middle of them. The Sharonians know nothing about Arcanan communication systems. They have a three week two-way communications loop and it's been two months. They would have no way to realize that word of the very first encounter hasn't even reached Arcanan high command, so it's natural to assume that the attack was authorized by those on high.

In short, Sharona has no reason to believe those three incidents are anything other than standard Arcanan policy and thus they exemplify just how militant and untrustworthy Arcanans are. Just what they'll think if they ever learn Arcanan had a civil war over said encounters is probably worth pages and pages of debate on these boards.
[quote="Thorby"][quote="brnicholas"]

The problem is that three times Sharona has tried to talk to Arcana. Three times Arcana has responded by attacking Sharona. Once could be explained away, twice maybe. Three times is policy! Facing an enemy who responds to negotiation with military force the only logical response for Sharona is to demand unconditional surrender. Negotiation isn't an option because Arcana will just use it as a cover to prepare to attack, for blowing trust to bits using Skirvon's honor guard in their attack is worse then torture. The Arcanan atrocities will only add emotional punch to the logical arguments for demanding unconditional surrender.


Thank you for the kind worlds of welcome.

I take your point and completely agree that it will take a long time for Sharona to appreciate the difference between the first two incidents and the third one. However, Arcana, and especially Jarsak and his father, will soon be very aware. That's why I believe there is the possibility of armed conflict in Arcana itself between factions.

I must say that I really like this series. I have read and re-read the chapters dealing with Janaki's death on several occasions and I find it deeply moving. This series could easily go for ten or more volumes. I think the problem with the series is that volume one was mostly exposition and volume two followed it too closely. As the action is heating up, I trust that this next volume will reach the level of readership that will call for a fourth volume quickly.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:59 am

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bkwormlisa wrote:Welcome to the forums!

Yes, there is quite a difference. The problem is, Sharona doesn't know that. Shaylar told them that the force pinning her team deliberately chose to shoot their leader in the throat. Nothing she said indicated that it was a mistake by a junior officer because she didn't know that's what it was. She assumed it was the order. Chan Baskay and Arthag discuss it at one point and even though Skirvon is telling the truth as he knows it that the officer in charge tried to avoid the massacre, they conclude that Skirvon only believes that because the officer in question lied to his superiors.

That one of the 3 incidents can, and eventually should be, eventually get cleared up and independently confirmed by the Sharonan side.

Shaylar's Voice message included the command that Jasak shouted; and all Voices have perfect memory. So once other Voices learn the language (from PoWs) they can discover the same thing Shaylar already did; that her impression was wrong and the order was to NOT fire.


However that still leaves the 2nd and 3rd incidents, which are the more serious ones - after knowing that the situation had gone wrong attacking a messenger under a banner of parley and then, apparently with the support of high command, using negotiations as cover for assassination and surprise attack.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by JimHacker   » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:15 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
bkwormlisa wrote:Welcome to the forums!

Yes, there is quite a difference. The problem is, Sharona doesn't know that. Shaylar told them that the force pinning her team deliberately chose to shoot their leader in the throat. Nothing she said indicated that it was a mistake by a junior officer because she didn't know that's what it was. She assumed it was the order. Chan Baskay and Arthag discuss it at one point and even though Skirvon is telling the truth as he knows it that the officer in charge tried to avoid the massacre, they conclude that Skirvon only believes that because the officer in question lied to his superiors.

That one of the 3 incidents can, and eventually should be, eventually get cleared up and independently confirmed by the Sharonan side.

Shaylar's Voice message included the command that Jasak shouted; and all Voices have perfect memory. So once other Voices learn the language (from PoWs) they can discover the same thing Shaylar already did; that her impression was wrong and the order was to NOT fire.


However that still leaves the 2nd and 3rd incidents, which are the more serious ones - after knowing that the situation had gone wrong attacking a messenger under a banner of parley and then, apparently with the support of high command, using negotiations as cover for assassination and surprise attack.


Actually, I believe I recall reading that Shaylar is horrified after learning the attack was an accident because she realised that based on her transmission the Sharonans still wouldn't be able to work that out.

Shaylar only started transmitting 'live' after the attack had already begun - thus she transmitted how it began from her perspective, her horror and shock etc. But she didn't transmit every detail, and it is specifically mentioned that she did not transmit the orders she heard in a foreign language - only her impression that it was an order to attack. Her live broadcast did include all details with the perfect memory, but this only started once the attack was already underway.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:31 pm

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JimHacker wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:That one of the 3 incidents can, and eventually should be, eventually get cleared up and independently confirmed by the Sharonan side.

Shaylar's Voice message included the command that Jasak shouted; and all Voices have perfect memory. So once other Voices learn the language (from PoWs) they can discover the same thing Shaylar already did; that her impression was wrong and the order was to NOT fire.


However that still leaves the 2nd and 3rd incidents, which are the more serious ones - after knowing that the situation had gone wrong attacking a messenger under a banner of parley and then, apparently with the support of high command, using negotiations as cover for assassination and surprise attack.


Actually, I believe I recall reading that Shaylar is horrified after learning the attack was an accident because she realised that based on her transmission the Sharonans still wouldn't be able to work that out.

Shaylar only started transmitting 'live' after the attack had already begun - thus she transmitted how it began from her perspective, her horror and shock etc. But she didn't transmit every detail, and it is specifically mentioned that she did not transmit the orders she heard in a foreign language - only her impression that it was an order to attack. Her live broadcast did include all details with the perfect memory, but this only started once the attack was already underway.

Oops, looks like you're right. I'd misremembered the timeline and though Shaylar had linked with Darcel as soon as the survey party got cornered. But rechecking the text shows that while she'd sent a message from their original camp with the warning, and their intentions to flee, she didn't link in again until after the firefight at the fallen trees had started.

So it's clear she didn't live broadcast that actual order, and it does seem unlikely, in the short time she had, that she sent her memory of it. Though she might have caught a few of Jasak's 'Cease Fire. Damn You's... But that's ambiguous, at best, and even once translated might be assumed to be a commander who has won now wanting prisoners; rather than a commander incensed that his troops initiated combat against his specific command.


There may be some scenes hiding later on that clarify exactly what was in the final message Darcel relayed; but I didn't find them quickly.
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