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Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:37 am

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The problem with "no official reprisals" is that official reprisals are the only way to prevent "war crimes".

Poison gas (IIRC) was "outlawed" after WW1 but it wasn't used on the battlefield in WW2 because "everybody" knew that the proper response to poison gas was to either use it themselves or some other form of "official reprisals".

Of course, the problem here is that there was been no communication between the sides concerning "what actions deserve official reprisals".


PeterZ wrote:If the issue is simply illegal brutality, even by Arcanan standards, you are probably right about having no official reprisals. Unfortunately, Arcana might have initiated an official policy for dealing with Voices. In that case, Sharona must respond with a reprisal to deter that policy or their voices will be a continued target. By doing nothing, Sharona encourages Arcana to continue either using or even expanding the policy until it bites them back.

Astelon wrote:It is actually three main factions; the Ransarans (Gadrial's people), Andarans (Jasak's people), and Mythalans. Currently the combined vote of the Andarans, and Ransarans set the policy, but Mythal is looking to change that.

A major part of the reason most readers identify more with Sharona is because we have seen the inside of their politics, and seen mostly good people. It is very hard to identify with something (Arcana and its leadership) when you know next nothing about it. It gets even harder when the highest ranking individual you have seen is obviously a "bad guy," and the second is allowing atrocities out of perceived military necessity.

AS for reprisals, I hope Sharona avoids official reprisals (unofficial is another matter entirely). What I can see happening is that Sharonan talents allow them to identify, try, and execute the guilty more rapidly then any Aracana could possibly believe (and they won't). The executions could be seen out of context by a recon flight leaving the Arcanans to believe that the Sharonans are willfully murdering prisons for no cause. After all the expeditionary force has been told this already, I'm sure word is spreading to other ormations as they are (or will be) moved up.
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Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
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Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:33 am

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True enough, Drak. Punishing the guilty after they are captured as a POW looks an awful lot like POW abuse no matter how its sliced. Anything short of a reprisal policy that's communicated to the Arcanas, won't deter much.

DrakBibliophile wrote:The problem with "no official reprisals" is that official reprisals are the only way to prevent "war crimes".

Poison gas (IIRC) was "outlawed" after WW1 but it wasn't used on the battlefield in WW2 because "everybody" knew that the proper response to poison gas was to either use it themselves or some other form of "official reprisals".

Of course, the problem here is that there was been no communication between the sides concerning "what actions deserve official reprisals".
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:04 am

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Peter Z.

There is a good reason why I said Sharona should announce to Arcanian forces that all dragon pilots and gryphon handlers captured inside a pre-Hells Gate Sharionan controlled universe should be executed upon capture as a retaliatory measure for Arcanian execution of Sharonan Voices.

And make sure the Arcanians know that part of the reason for this sharonan policy is that Arcanian "silence the voices" order included the targeted killing of Sharonan children.


PeterZ wrote:True enough, Drak. Punishing the guilty after they are captured as a POW looks an awful lot like POW abuse no matter how its sliced. Anything short of a reprisal policy that's communicated to the Arcanas, won't deter much.

DrakBibliophile wrote:The problem with "no official reprisals" is that official reprisals are the only way to prevent "war crimes".

Poison gas (IIRC) was "outlawed" after WW1 but it wasn't used on the battlefield in WW2 because "everybody" knew that the proper response to poison gas was to either use it themselves or some other form of "official reprisals".

Of course, the problem here is that there was been no communication between the sides concerning "what actions deserve official reprisals".
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:13 am

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Mil-tech bard wrote:Peter Z.

There is a good reason why I said Sharona should announce to Arcanian forces that all dragon pilots and gryphon handlers captured inside a pre-Hells Gate Sharionan controlled universe should be executed upon capture as a retaliatory measure for Arcanian execution of Sharonan Voices.

And make sure the Arcanians know that part of the reason for this sharonan policy is that Arcanian "silence the voices" order included the targeted killing of Sharonan children.
Of course the pre-requite for that is the ability to communicate accurately with the Arcanins; something that's been notoriously problematic.

They don't have the equivalent of neutral nations, or even cables / radio. So there's no way to either officially inform the other government, nor to widely broadcast to most combatants and civilians, that you're implementing an official reprisal policy.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:55 am

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A Sharonan white flag parley through the Ft Salby gate passing on the warning to Arcanian forces would suffice for the necessary communications.

Jonathan_S wrote:
Mil-tech bard wrote:Peter Z.

There is a good reason why I said Sharona should announce to Arcanian forces that all dragon pilots and gryphon handlers captured inside a pre-Hells Gate Sharionan controlled universe should be executed upon capture as a retaliatory measure for Arcanian execution of Sharonan Voices.

And make sure the Arcanians know that part of the reason for this sharonan policy is that Arcanian "silence the voices" order included the targeted killing of Sharonan children.
Of course the pre-requite for that is the ability to communicate accurately with the Arcanins; something that's been notoriously problematic.

They don't have the equivalent of neutral nations, or even cables / radio. So there's no way to either officially inform the other government, nor to widely broadcast to most combatants and civilians, that you're implementing an official reprisal policy.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:40 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:A Sharonan white flag parley through the Ft Salby gate passing on the warning to Arcanian forces would suffice for the necessary communications.
Last time I recall the Sharonan's sending a parley under a white flag the guy was shot at. And even if the Parley was accepted there's nothing I can see stopping the Arcana chai of command from lying about what was said, to hide that the attricities as reprisals.

Wouldn't be the first time in the series the Mylathans (sp?) suppressed info or lied to keep the conflict going and to manipulate eventual public opinion once the news gets back to Arcana.


In other words I don't think a parley disseminates the knowledge of the policy highly or broadly enough to make it effective.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Astelon   » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:01 pm

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Meanwhile the word will spread that Sharona Murders prisoners of war. Gurthak will make sure tales of Sharonan abuses spread before those of Arcanans do, inflaming the public, before the hammer falls on the Andaran military who violated their accords.

I still say find the guilty, try them, and after conviction execute them. Let other Arcana prisoners witness the proceedings, eventually the war will end and those prisoners will be able to tell what they heard and saw in an official forum.

Not much help for the current war, but without any neutral communications that can't be helped. I don't see any help from executing an entire group of prisoners (dragon pilots and hummer handlers) without exception. That will probably only anger Arcanans even more once the full story is known.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:15 pm

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The Ft Salby stand-off is different.

The Arcanians, specifically Commander of 2000 Harisu (sp?) wants to communicate with the Sharonan chain of command.

And it is very much in his personal, as well as Arcanian policy, interests to stamp down on the lying to Arcanian troops.

If only to reestablish the authority of his chain of command visa vi the Kerrelian (sp?) Accords.

Commander of 2000 Harisu has to realize his society is now in the beginnings of a very long war, given his command's killing of the heir to the Sharonan throne.

The Andarans, and by extension the Andaran dominated Arcanian military, understandx the implications of that better than any other Arcanian society.



Jonathan_S wrote:
Mil-tech bard wrote:A Sharonan white flag parley through the Ft Salby gate passing on the warning to Arcanian forces would suffice for the necessary communications.
Last time I recall the Sharonan's sending a parley under a white flag the guy was shot at. And even if the Parley was accepted there's nothing I can see stopping the Arcana chai of command from lying about what was said, to hide that the attricities as reprisals.

Wouldn't be the first time in the series the Mylathans (sp?) suppressed info or lied to keep the conflict going and to manipulate eventual public opinion once the news gets back to Arcana.


In other words I don't think a parley disseminates the knowledge of the policy highly or broadly enough to make it effective.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:47 pm

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This assumes that Arcana does not continue to kill Voices of any age. What will be done to prevent that?

Push come to shove, send some prisoners back with the message. Perhaps a dragon rider with an amputated right hand. This guy is lucky all other captured riders have been executed as a reprisal for killing Talented children and Voices.

Trying and convicting the guilty only works if the guilty parties are equally likely to be placed in situations to be captured. If the killers of children and Voices are REMFs detailed specifically to do just that, the trials accomplish nothing and captured Voices continue to get killed.

Astelon wrote:Meanwhile the word will spread that Sharona Murders prisoners of war. Gurthak will make sure tales of Sharonan abuses spread before those of Arcanans do, inflaming the public, before the hammer falls on the Andaran military who violated their accords.

I still say find the guilty, try them, and after conviction execute them. Let other Arcana prisoners witness the proceedings, eventually the war will end and those prisoners will be able to tell what they heard and saw in an official forum.

Not much help for the current war, but without any neutral communications that can't be helped. I don't see any help from executing an entire group of prisoners (dragon pilots and hummer handlers) without exception. That will probably only anger Arcanans even more once the full story is known.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by brnicholas   » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:26 pm

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You are arguing for a very high and noble moral ideal. I will not engage with the question of whether this policy is the proper one for Sharona to undertake or not in light of everything that we know about both sides. Nor will I argue about rather or not this is the ideal society should pursue.

I am going to argue that this is not the policy Sharona will undertake because we know very well that this is not the moral ideal that the Calirath's aspire to.

Recall what Zindel said to Andrin about what is means to rule well, "If, on the other hand, I believed, really believed, Andrin, and had the hard evidence to prove to my total satisfaction that the only way to ensure the survival of Ternathia—or Sharona—was to wage genocide, I would do exactly that. It would rip my soul to shreds, but I would, by all the gods, do it. Just as I would fight to the death to stop others from committing genocide, if I believed them to be wrong morally and politically. That is what it means to rule. Don't ever forget it, Andrin."

Also recall what Perthas said about the Calirath's in Chapter 48 of Hell's Gate. He said, "the fact that the Caliraths have traditionally put their subjects' best interests first doesn't mean they aren't ruthless. In fact, Darl, if you go back and look at Ternathian history, I think you'll discover that nobody's ever been more ruthless than a Calirath when there was no other way to win."

If the Zindel thinks killing innocent Arcanans in a policy of retaliation might stop or reduce Arcanan atrocities against Sharonans he will consider himself morally obligated to adopt such a policy.

When you remember the limits of Zindel's knowledge. He knows little to nothing about Arcanan government or Arcanan communications delays. It becomes apparent that he will assume the torture or prisoners and the murder of voices was a policy adopted by the Arcanan government at the highest level. He will assume the guilty are the Arcanan leadership who he can't touch without conquering Arcana. Retaliating against Arcanan prisoners might produce a change in Arcanan policy, however, so he will do it.

Nicholas

Astelon wrote:Meanwhile the word will spread that Sharona Murders prisoners of war. Gurthak will make sure tales of Sharonan abuses spread before those of Arcanans do, inflaming the public, before the hammer falls on the Andaran military who violated their accords.

I still say find the guilty, try them, and after conviction execute them. Let other Arcana prisoners witness the proceedings, eventually the war will end and those prisoners will be able to tell what they heard and saw in an official forum.

Not much help for the current war, but without any neutral communications that can't be helped. I don't see any help from executing an entire group of prisoners (dragon pilots and hummer handlers) without exception. That will probably only anger Arcanans even more once the full story is known.
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