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Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by SCC   » Tue May 19, 2015 4:12 am

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OK, I'm quoting a couple of posts from an older thread in the hopes that someone can explain why the Conave members can suddenly no longer read a treaty

I wrote this.
SCC wrote:I think that people really should go back and read the part where the section of the Act of Unification, for those who can't be bothered here it is from Chapter 52 of Hell's Gate

"Article Two, Section Three, Subsection Fourteen: It shall be agreed that the Heir to the co-joined Thrones of the Empires of Ternathia and Sharona shall, within three months of the ratification of this Act of Unification by all Parties, wed a Royal Princess of Uromathia, and that the Issue of this Marriage shall in perpetuity displace the claim of any other Individual, Dynasty, or Nation upon the Crown of the Empire of Sharona."


Now Chapter 35 of Hell Hath No Fury did in no way modify these, so strictly speaking Andrin has to marry a Uromathian Princess, not Prince

Clearly in light of this fact the treaty will need to be reworded


To which PeterZ replied, quoting me, but not can't triple nest quote here
PeterZ wrote:Not really, because the text assumes an "Issue" from that marriage. Not possible of same sexed marriage. Adoption isn't in the cards because of both inhereted talents and genetic lineage. The key point is "Royal", not "Imperial" princess. This means that a the Heir of Ternathia and Sharona must marry a princess born either to an Uromathian king or Emperor. It does not specify that the princess be an Uromathian Imperial Princess which would pretty much limit the options to Chava's line. Chava is the Emperor of Uromathia after all.

Whoever snuck that Royal descriptor into the language was both sneaky and subtle enough to slip it by Chava. Undoubtedly, Chava will not respond well to this tactical defeat.


So can anyone explain this to me? Or is it simply a case of a per-written plot arc and provided textev that wasn't fully thought out
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty??? spoiler
Post by PeterZ   » Tue May 19, 2015 7:10 am

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I assume there is language stipulating who would take Janki's place should he unable to comply with the Treaty. That language would also clarify whom the new Tenithian and Sharonan Imperial heir would marry.

The snippet suggests that Chava assumed the Treaty refers to Uromathian Empire but the treaty refers to a broader Uromathia. It does seem Chava needs to hire better lawyers.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty??? spoiler
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue May 19, 2015 8:25 am

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To be "fair", it's obvious that both sides assumed "Uromathian Empire" not the broader Uromathian.

I suspect that either side would have "slapped down" a nit-picking lawyer who earlier pointed out the "error".

Of course, I wouldn't want to be the Uromathian Empire lawyer who got "slapped down". :evil: :evil:

PeterZ wrote:I assume there is language stipulating who would take Janki's place should he unable to comply with the Treaty. That language would also clarify whom the new Tenithian and Sharonan Imperial heir would marry.

The snippet suggests that Chava assumed the Treaty refers to Uromathian Empire but the treaty refers to a broader Uromathia. It does seem Chava needs to hire better lawyers.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty??? spoiler
Post by PeterZ   » Tue May 19, 2015 9:01 am

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That's why I stated earlier the insertion of the text was sneaky and subtle if intentional. The only way it would have worked though, was if it was unintentional.

I think you are right, the assumption was universal. If it wasn't it would not have passed as written. Someone would have brought it to Chava's attention.

DrakBibliophile wrote:To be "fair", it's obvious that both sides assumed "Uromathian Empire" not the broader Uromathian.

I suspect that either side would have "slapped down" a nit-picking lawyer who earlier pointed out the "error".

Of course, I wouldn't want to be the Uromathian Empire lawyer who got "slapped down". :evil: :evil:

PeterZ wrote:I assume there is language stipulating who would take Janki's place should he unable to comply with the Treaty. That language would also clarify whom the new Tenithian and Sharonan Imperial heir would marry.

The snippet suggests that Chava assumed the Treaty refers to Uromathian Empire but the treaty refers to a broader Uromathia. It does seem Chava needs to hire better lawyers.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue May 19, 2015 2:23 pm

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Also, its natural for people to read documents the way
that they wish to read them.
People always hear, and read, what they wish to!

HTM
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty??? spoiler
Post by brnicholas   » Sun May 24, 2015 11:09 am

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I agree, "the assumption was universal." Which is why it is going to take all Zindal's political skill and an enormous amount of political capital for Andrin to get away with ignoring the assumption while claiming to abide by the treaty.

Unless of course Chava is stupid enough to give Zindal an excuse and opportunity to execute him for treason and unite the crowns of Ternanthia & Uromathia.

Nicholas

PeterZ wrote:That's why I stated earlier the insertion of the text was sneaky and subtle if intentional. The only way it would have worked though, was if it was unintentional.

I think you are right, the assumption was universal. If it wasn't it would not have passed as written. Someone would have brought it to Chava's attention.

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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty??? spoiler
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Sun May 24, 2015 1:10 pm

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Well, the non-Imperial Uromathian states would likely support Andrin.

Image of an older highly respected Uromathian King asking the Uromathian Emperor "Are you saying we're not Real Urmathians?" :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

brnicholas wrote:I agree, "the assumption was universal." Which is why it is going to take all Zindal's political skill and an enormous amount of political capital for Andrin to get away with ignoring the assumption while claiming to abide by the treaty.

Unless of course Chava is stupid enough to give Zindal an excuse and opportunity to execute him for treason and unite the crowns of Ternanthia & Uromathia.

Nicholas

PeterZ wrote:That's why I stated earlier the insertion of the text was sneaky and subtle if intentional. The only way it would have worked though, was if it was unintentional.

I think you are right, the assumption was universal. If it wasn't it would not have passed as written. Someone would have brought it to Chava's attention.

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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Astelon   » Sun May 24, 2015 3:38 pm

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The misunderstanding arose because every one thought they new what the language meant. they where so focused on what Chava Busar wanted that they didn't pay enough attention to the actual wording and its alternate interpretations.

As for making it stand up both in the conclave, and in Sharona outside of the conclave, depends on several factors. How much support does Chava Busar actually have. The wording is what he insisted on, so if he doesn't get exactly what he wants its his own fault will be the claim of many. so can Chava convince his allies (he has to have some real allies, and not just those terrified of him) that this is a fight worth having, and can Ternathia peal away nations afraid of Chava (promises of security and such).

If Chava can't make a real stand he would be much smarter to cause problems over the long run, maybe getting what he wants in the next generation. Though I suspect he will be to offended to play the long game and go the assassination route, thereby giving the emperor (or possibly the empress) cause to separate his head from his shoulders.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty??? spoiler
Post by Keith_w   » Mon May 25, 2015 5:55 am

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brnicholas wrote:I agree, "the assumption was universal." Which is why it is going to take all Zindal's political skill and an enormous amount of political capital for Andrin to get away with ignoring the assumption while claiming to abide by the treaty.

Unless of course Chava is stupid enough to give Zindal an excuse and opportunity to execute him for treason and unite the crowns of Ternanthia & Uromathia.

Nicholas

PeterZ wrote:That's why I stated earlier the insertion of the text was sneaky and subtle if intentional. The only way it would have worked though, was if it was unintentional.

I think you are right, the assumption was universal. If it wasn't it would not have passed as written. Someone would have brought it to Chava's attention.



He is already conspiring with the high priest, so it shouldn't take all that long for him to get caught. Of course, you then have to deal with his sons.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty??? spoiler
Post by Louis R   » Tue May 26, 2015 1:11 pm

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Yes, it's pretty clear that Chava is counting on arranging a regency. A very long regency, with the infant Emperor's only surviving grandfather - better yet, great grandfather - as the Regent ;)

What it looks like he will actually end up with - assuming he lives to see it - is that by the end of Andrin Calirath's reign it will be acknowledged that the honorific 'chan' is as appropriate for women as for men.

Keith_w wrote:
brnicholas wrote:I agree, "the assumption was universal." Which is why it is going to take all Zindal's political skill and an enormous amount of political capital for Andrin to get away with ignoring the assumption while claiming to abide by the treaty.

Unless of course Chava is stupid enough to give Zindal an excuse and opportunity to execute him for treason and unite the crowns of Ternanthia & Uromathia.

Nicholas


He is already conspiring with the high priest, so it shouldn't take all that long for him to get caught. Of course, you then have to deal with his sons.
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