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Unification?

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Unification?
Post by cralkhi   » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:42 am

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Am I the only one who thinks Sharona kind of rushed into unification? Sure, Zindel is a good leader, but a world monarchy might prove to be a bad idea farther down the line (especially with Chava's influence thrown in).

And I don't see why they need it to fight the war - plenty of wars have been successfully fought by alliances.

It seemed a bit shaky to me, too, when Zindel started talking about "a war for survival" and all that. I know he's meant to be a good leader, but that really did
seem to me to be a bit of fear-mongering... they have absolutely no reason at that point to think it's "a war for survival". They hadn't even heard about the Arcanans' mistreatment of prisoners yet, and they hadn't treacherously attacked during negotiations either.
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Re: Unification?
Post by brnicholas   » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:23 am

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Yes, I agree the unification was a bit of a rush. But it also looks to me like there was a large chunk of the population (1/3rd or more) looking for an excuse for unification and this was a good one. In other words, the unification was driven by a large minority who took advantage of events to get what they already wanted.

I do not agree that Zindel's talk about a war for survival was fear mongering. Given what he knows a second strike that goes on all the way to Sharona is not an unreasonable possibility. Given what we know about Arcana I am confident if they could annex Sharona cheaply by force they would do so. Sharona has good reason to fear being conquered by Arcana and there experience is quite clear that when Arcana thinks it has the upper hand militarily it goes for a military solution.

Nicholas
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Re: Unification?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:06 pm

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Plenty of wars have been lost by alliances.
Plenty of alliances have had one Leader-country which
does most of the fighting and makes most decisions.

At this point the Sharonans don't know that the Arcanan's
particular magic won't work on Sharona, or New Sharona.

They do know that the Strangers attacked them at once,
and with Magical Weapons.
They do not know of any escapees.
They have reason to believe that someone was kidnapped.

They do know that the Calirath Dynasty has been worthy
of trust for four thousand years.

HTM

cralkhi wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Sharona kind of rushed into unification? Sure, Zindel is a good leader, but a world monarchy might prove to be a bad idea farther down the line (especially with Chava's influence thrown in).

And I don't see why they need it to fight the war - plenty of wars have been successfully fought by alliances.

It seemed a bit shaky to me, too, when Zindel started talking about "a war for survival" and all that. I know he's meant to be a good leader, but that really did
seem to me to be a bit of fear-mongering... they have absolutely no reason at that point to think it's "a war for survival". They hadn't even heard about the Arcanans' mistreatment of prisoners yet, and they hadn't treacherously attacked during negotiations either.
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Re: Unification?
Post by Tim   » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:52 pm

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Plenty of wars have been lost by alliances.
Plenty of alliances have had one Leader-country which
does most of the fighting and makes most decisions.

At this point the Sharonans don't know that the Arcanan's
particular magic won't work on Sharona, or New Sharona.

They do know that the Strangers attacked them at once,
and with Magical Weapons.
They do not know of any escapees.
They have reason to believe that someone was kidnapped.

They do know that the Calirath Dynasty has been worthy
of trust for four thousand years.


All good points but the 500 pound gorilla in the room is the Calirath Glimps Talent which is telling the Emperor and his daughter "This is a fight for survival!".

Add onto that bonfire the Crown Prince sacrificing himself as his visions showed he must to ensure his defensive victory.

Here is the final kicker. The Crown Prince was weak in the talent so the strong glimps told him it was his deathride.

Now are you going to tell me when the Emperor and his daughter, who have strong glimps talents, are having visions of a horrible war which will engulf all of Sharon one can marginalize them?

I do not think so.
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Re: Unification?
Post by Astelon   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:06 pm

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:They do know that the Strangers attacked them at once,
and with Magical Weapons.
They do not know of any escapees.
They have reason to believe that someone was kidnapped.
[/quote]

And the Arcanas have apparently shown no mercy to those they have faced, murdering and slaughtering (they don't know about torture yet but can make good guesses as to why no voice got a warning out) their way through multiple universes for no reason at all. In fact the Arcanans used peace talks as a ploy to begin this murderous rampage, so they have no honor or respect for other at all.

It would be understandable for the average Sharonan to assume that the Arcanans want nothing more than the complete destruction of all opposition, and enslavement of all people to their way of life. In fact the national leaders should be reaching that conclusion based on the evidence.

A lot of pressure for effective action on the part of the whole planet, with no exceptions. was it rushed? Yes, a bit, but they had good reasoning behind their actions.
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Re: Unification?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:05 pm

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Tim wrote:All good points but the 500 pound gorilla in the room is the Calirath Glimps Talent which is telling the Emperor and his daughter "This is a fight for survival!".
Yep. Zindel and his daughter have both been seeing powerful Glimpses of what looks like enemies with previously unknown combat capabilities raining fire and destruction on Sharonan cities.

That is certainly driving his feel that this is quite possibly a "war for survival". I don't think, given that special information, that he was "fear-mongering" when he told the assembly that.
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Re: Unification?
Post by tonyz   » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:54 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Tim wrote:All good points but the 500 pound gorilla in the room is the Calirath Glimps Talent which is telling the Emperor and his daughter "This is a fight for survival!".
Yep. Zindel and his daughter have both been seeing powerful Glimpses of what looks like enemies with previously unknown combat capabilities raining fire and destruction on Sharonan cities.

That is certainly driving his feel that this is quite possibly a "war for survival". I don't think, given that special information, that he was "fear-mongering" when he told the assembly that.


And we should note that he specifically told his Council about the Glimpses, so they're also working off the same info. (Other stuff is going on, too -- for instance, the news guy who wants a world government and did his best to set the Caliraths up for it; and obviously there's considerable backing for the idea, or it wouldn't have got the traction it did.)
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Re: Unification?
Post by Henry Brown   » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:35 pm

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cralkhi wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Sharona kind of rushed into unification? Sure, Zindel is a good leader, but a world monarchy might prove to be a bad idea farther down the line (especially with Chava's influence thrown in).

And I don't see why they need it to fight the war - plenty of wars have been successfully fought by alliances.

It seemed a bit shaky to me, too, when Zindel started talking about "a war for survival" and all that. I know he's meant to be a good leader, but that really did
seem to me to be a bit of fear-mongering... they have absolutely no reason at that point to think it's "a war for survival". They hadn't even heard about the Arcanans' mistreatment of prisoners yet, and they hadn't treacherously attacked during negotiations either.


I think the unification might go better than you anticipate. After all, Sharona already has a powerful, massive, world-wide, multi-national organization: The Portal Authority. In terms of power or influence I don't think there is anything in the real world that compares to the way the PA is described. The United Nations might be the closest we have. But I think the PA is more powerful, better-run, more organized, and more influential than the UN. In addition, the PA seems to be genuinely multi-national. They seem to be respected and trusted by all of Sharona. Given that the PA is one of the forces behind the unification, I have to disagree that Sharona is rushing into unification.
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Re: Unification?
Post by brnicholas   » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:42 pm

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I think some of the largest multinational companies (General Electric, GM, Toyota, HSBC for example) may match the PA in all the ways you describe.

Nicholas

Henry Brown wrote:I think the unification might go better than you anticipate. After all, Sharona already has a powerful, massive, world-wide, multi-national organization: The Portal Authority. In terms of power or influence I don't think there is anything in the real world that compares to the way the PA is described. The United Nations might be the closest we have. But I think the PA is more powerful, better-run, more organized, and more influential than the UN. In addition, the PA seems to be genuinely multi-national. They seem to be respected and trusted by all of Sharona. Given that the PA is one of the forces behind the unification, I have to disagree that Sharona is rushing into unification.
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Re: Unification?
Post by Henry Brown   » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:42 pm

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brnicholas wrote:I think some of the largest multinational companies (General Electric, GM, Toyota, HSBC for example) may match the PA in all the ways you describe.

Nicholas



I have to disagree. Consider 2 of the companies you use as an example: Toyota and GM. Both are large, international automobile companies. But that is all they are. Toyota and GM don't make other kinds of stuff. Furthermore, there are a number of *other* large auto companies such as Ford, VW, Honda, Hyundai/Kia and so on. So even in the one industry that are a part of, neither GM or Toyota is truly dominant.

Now consider the PA. They build railroads on a scale that dwarfs the trans-continental railroad project of the 1900s. They also manufacture the equipment used to build the railroads AND the locomotives that will run on the tracks once built. They operate ships wherever there is a watergap in the multiverse. They also build the ships, establish the ports, and administrate the ports. All multiverse communications are controlled by the PA. Finally, the PA runs the portals which has no true real world equivalent, but which I think could be called logistics. So, the PA is a railroad/heavy equipment manufacturing/shipping/shipbuilding/communications/logistics company. And in each of the area I just named, the PA is far and away the largest, dominant company.
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