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Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculation

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculati
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:33 am

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Bkwormlisa,

Thanks for the info. Haven't taken the time to listen to the interview entire.

I wonder if the laws of physics in each universe might be subject to shifting in the other direction after is has been initially tilted in one direction? If so, it argues for annihilation. Destroy all intelligent influence not of one's own society and turn that universe in your direction. I suspect the universes might only be tilted to a limited degree.

If turns out that that once set the universe is permanently set, that also argues for a war with no quarter. By taking all the worlds a society can, it defines the multiverse in its own preferred image. By pushing other societies back as far as possible into their core worlds with its alien physics, a society can better influence the shaping of the multiverse.

I wonder how they avoid a war of annihilation?
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Re: Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculati
Post by grendel_one   » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:52 pm

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So if they 'physics' depends on the population, how do magic dragons fly when they break into our non-magical world?
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Re: Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculati
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:55 pm

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We have not been shown whether they do fly, or not.

::fantasy a dragon flying through a portal,
and then falling to the ground. Plop!::

HTM

grendel_one wrote:So if they 'physics' depends on the population,
how do magic dragons fly when they break into
our non-magical world?
grendel one

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Re: Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculati
Post by grendel_one   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:04 pm

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:We have not been shown whether they do fly, or not.

::fantasy a dragon flying through a portal,
and then falling to the ground. Plop!::



While that makes for a funny first scene, it makes for a short rest of the book, so I'm pretty sure they'll continue to fly
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Re: Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculati
Post by Astelon   » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:36 pm

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I suspect that many of the laws of physics have to be the same between universes, or life from one, would not be able to survive in another. Shaylar and Jathmar have both lost the abilities but are surviving just fine, and we have no word of captured soldiers dying or having other problems.

If we simply start at what is needed to keep a human alive, and allow all five senses to function (seems to be the minimum requirement) what would actually work, and what would fail?

That means chemistry, combustion, electricity, action/reaction, and at least some of the electromagnetic spectrum (visible light) works the same in all known universes.

Since these same laws that allow for human survival are the same laws that make Sharonan (and our) technology work, then it should work in all universes. so Sharonans would still have steam power, rifles, and artillery (combustion, and pressure). They would just be losing their telepathic abilities (psionic?). Most of Arcana's military technology is based on magic, so much of their combat power would be reduced.

Further I don't believe that dragons use magic to fly, just aerodynamics. Their breath weapons would probably not function, and I don't know if they would suffer from other effects (could they still be controlled? does the failing breath weapon cause some damage/kill a dragon?) The pilots helmets wouldn't work either.

Of course this may make it harder for Arcanans to fight a mobile war and attack Sharonan supply lines, especially as more Sharonan military units are moved up. And it may make it extremely difficult for them to employ any magical weapons of mass destruction, at least in some locations.

Makes me wonder what technology we have that wouldn't work, radios possibly, nuclear fission maybe.
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Re: Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculati
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:11 pm

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bkwormlisa wrote:Actually, the science does change. In the interview, DW said that in Arcana, magic works but "physics hardly works at all". And vice versa in Sharona. I'd guess that really means that the laws of physics work differently, since there do have to be some kind of laws explaining how things work. So Sharonaian guns probably won't work in Arcana. I wonder how they'll explain that?

BTW, he says Sharonian physics is Newtonian physics, complete with a speed of light that's instantaneous. Our gross tech would probably work there, but electronics might be different, and if we ever succeed at quantum computing it almost certainly wouldn't work. GPS relies on Einsteinium physics, so it's probably out too. I wonder what else?
Hmm I was about to say that GPS corrects for Einsteinium physics (relativity), but doesn't require it. But it does require a finite speed of light; otherwise you can't measure the satellite distance based on the time the radio signal takes to arrive.


Hmm, if the speed of light (in a vacuum, presumably) is infinite is there still speed of light variations in other materials? Would you still get refraction from going across an optical boundary?

Without that lens wouldn't work, no telescopes, microscopes, binoculars, eyeglasses, prisms, etc, etc. OTOH I'm not sure how sharp a refraction you'd get if an infinitely fast photon slowed to ~0.7c when it hit glass.
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Re: Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculati
Post by grendel_one   » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:56 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm, if the speed of light (in a vacuum, presumably) is infinite is there still speed of light variations in other materials? Would you still get refraction from going across an optical boundary?

Without that lens wouldn't work, no telescopes, microscopes, binoculars, eyeglasses, prisms, etc, etc. OTOH I'm not sure how sharp a refraction you'd get if an infinitely fast photon slowed to ~0.7c when it hit glass.


we know refraction still works as usual because people can see
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Re: Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculati
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:11 pm

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Maybe Human Sight is a form of Magic,
in worlds where refraction doesn't work.

HTM

grendel_one wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm, if the speed of light (in a vacuum, presumably) is infinite is there still speed of light variations in other materials? Would you still get refraction from going across an optical boundary?

Without that lens wouldn't work, no telescopes, microscopes, binoculars, eyeglasses, prisms, etc, etc. OTOH I'm not sure how sharp a refraction you'd get if an infinitely fast photon slowed to ~0.7c when it hit glass.


we know refraction still works as usual because people can see
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Re: Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculati
Post by cralkhi   » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:08 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm, if the speed of light (in a vacuum, presumably) is infinite is there still speed of light variations in other materials? Would you still get refraction from going across an optical boundary?


Refraction is something that exists in classical Newtonian optics, so it would still work in Sharona.

grendel_one wrote:So if they 'physics' depends on the population, how do magic dragons fly when they break into our non-magical world?


Presumably the flight itself isn't magical.
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Re: Surprised this place is not frothing with wild speculati
Post by Spirit   » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:52 am

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cralkhi wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm, if the speed of light (in a vacuum, presumably) is infinite is there still speed of light variations in other materials? Would you still get refraction from going across an optical boundary?


Refraction is something that exists in classical Newtonian optics, so it would still work in Sharona.


Hmm, maybe easily said that light can go in sharona's universe faster than here (as in infinite) but usually processes that emit photons just don't create photons with that much energy.

Maybe cherenkovs radiation effect is unnoticed for example if we give them technology of nuclear reactors and electricity that are more practical than steam.

Best experiment to find if speed or its maximum is changing is to watch stars. Are constellation on sharona significantly different? When sharonans get for first time in new uncolonized universe by anyone, is orientation by stars difficult since day 1 stars are very diffrent, than depending on speed of change of universes laws stars over next few days or years start moving faster until sudden stop in position like on sharona. Lest significant change for closer stars on distance 10-50 ly maybe, but especialy out of galaxy stars position should change.

And if sharona wont to colonize starts they dont need to bother with engines that move faster than our speed of light that much, but amount of fuel to accelerate to practical speed and stop. But who would bother with much easier to colonize alternate Earts, no need to terraform, maps already made so easily found resources and build locations found and would still need lot of fuel for practical speeds.
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