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Sharonian Aircraft?

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
dragons re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Thu May 28, 2015 11:42 am

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Me, I vote for Artillery Fragmentation as most dangerous.

The Scoped Rifles have shorter ranges,
and less hitting power.

HTM

Mil-tech bard wrote:[snip - htm]
Dragons landed and unloading troops on the ground hit by Sharonan artillery fragmentation and small arms are far more likely to survive than their pilots. Especially when the Sharonans start using scoped rifles.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Astelon   » Thu May 28, 2015 4:32 pm

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I still have to believe that the dragon pilot knows how difficult it is to replace a pilot versus a dragon. He may not be taking into account the effectiveness of Sharonan weapons, and the effect that might have on long term pilot losses.

It is still the case, if Sharona wants to cripple Arcana's offensive operations then kill the dragons. Pilots without a dragon are unlikely to escape sharonan troops, and if the dragon is killed while flying, then the pilot is most likely dead too.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by PeterZ   » Thu May 28, 2015 4:52 pm

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Astelon wrote:I still have to believe that the dragon pilot knows how difficult it is to replace a pilot versus a dragon. He may not be taking into account the effectiveness of Sharonan weapons, and the effect that might have on long term pilot losses.

It is still the case, if Sharona wants to cripple Arcana's offensive operations then kill the dragons. Pilots without a dragon are unlikely to escape sharonan troops, and if the dragon is killed while flying, then the pilot is most likely dead too.


Why do I have "Flight of the Valkyrie" blaring in the back of my head with Elmer Fudd croaking "Kill the Wabit! Kill the Waaaabit!"
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu May 28, 2015 5:31 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:And note, centuries of combat experience in Arcanian versus Arcanian dragon combat has taught the exactly wrong combat instincts to existing Battle Dragon Pilots than what is needed versus Sharona.

For instance, climbing only works versus the limited engagement range of Arcanian cross bows and "infantry dragons."

You need to be a accelerating, maneuvering, crossing target versus Sharonan anti-aircraft fire. And you have to limit your exposure to automatic weapons.

You don't climb under Sharonan anti-aircraft fire, you dive for speed, jinx, and make yourself a crossing target.

You don't dive on prepared positions with fire breathing Reds, the traditional way Dragons limited their exposure to cross bows and "infantry dragons."

You use blacks at a distance on a lateral/crossing course and spit lightning at Sharonan heavy crew served weapons. Only after you have suppressed the Sharonan heavy crew served weapons with lightning do you go after a position.

And carefully note, very few battle dragon pilots have survived thus far to even begin to develop such tactics.

Frankly, the best bet with battle dragons is as a raiding, as opposed to a main combat, unit.

Battle Dragons are magical battlecruisers, expensive sledgehammers with eggshell protection facing radar directed (Sharonan predictive far-viewers) coast defenses.

Battle Dragons need the equivalent of WW2 "Flak intelligence" on every Sharonan position prior to a battle Dragon attack.

The problem with that thought is that the Sharonans are going to be far better at overhead camouflage than the Arcanians very quickly given the Distance viewer talents. Asking such talent to look down on a position from above and comment on how well aerial camouflage is done will make the delay in recon-griffin imagery a deadly disadvantage.

The Sharonan AA fire we've seen to date has all been light to medium automatic weapons. I can't recall if they have the equivalent of time fuzed artillery, but they certainly wouldn't be expected to have VT AA rounds.

(Don't know how effective the predictive spotting Talent would be at AA with time fuzed artillery; it's possible that their pre-cog could iron out both target movement and shell to shell time fuze variations. But I tend to doubt it. And without a home-universe airborne threat to worry about they probably haven't put any work into high angle + high velocity guns suitable for AA work)



The relative short range / low altitude nature of the current AA makes me think that Arcana might be better off looking at transport dragons as high(er) altitude level bombers to just stay out of the AA envelope entirely. Of course do to that you need a bomb that's worth dropping...

If they develop expendable crystals/spellware for trans-portal bombardment then you could utilize them for bombs as well. But then you're back to wondering how many crystals they can afford to lose without creating a production or logistics bottleneck.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by brnicholas   » Fri May 29, 2015 8:40 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:The Sharonan AA fire we've seen to date has all been light to medium automatic weapons. I can't recall if they have the equivalent of time fuzed artillery, but they certainly wouldn't be expected to have VT AA rounds.

(Don't know how effective the predictive spotting Talent would be at AA with time fuzed artillery; it's possible that their pre-cog could iron out both target movement and shell to shell time fuze variations. But I tend to doubt it. And without a home-universe airborne threat to worry about they probably haven't put any work into high angle + high velocity guns suitable for AA work)


I just wanted to point out that at Fort Salby Windlord Garsel used time fused artillery to take out eleven dragons who were in the diversionary force. Of course those dragons were flying in close formation, getting individual dragons would probably be harder.

Nicholas
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Fri May 29, 2015 9:33 am

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Nicholas, yes I agree,
and you beat me to post this by less than an hour!

HTM

brnicholas wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:The Sharonan AA fire we've seen to date has all been light to medium automatic weapons. I can't recall if they have the equivalent of time fuzed artillery, but they certainly wouldn't be expected to have VT AA rounds.

(Don't know how effective the predictive spotting Talent would be at AA with time fuzed artillery; it's possible that their pre-cog could iron out both target movement and shell to shell time fuze variations. But I tend to doubt it. And without a home-universe airborne threat to worry about they probably haven't put any work into high angle + high velocity guns suitable for AA work)


I just wanted to point out that at Fort Salby Windlord Garsel used time fused artillery to take out eleven dragons who were in the diversionary force. Of course those dragons were flying in close formation, getting individual dragons would probably be harder.

Nicholas
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri May 29, 2015 2:29 pm

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brnicholas wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:The Sharonan AA fire we've seen to date has all been light to medium automatic weapons. I can't recall if they have the equivalent of time fuzed artillery, but they certainly wouldn't be expected to have VT AA rounds.

(Don't know how effective the predictive spotting Talent would be at AA with time fuzed artillery; it's possible that their pre-cog could iron out both target movement and shell to shell time fuze variations. But I tend to doubt it. And without a home-universe airborne threat to worry about they probably haven't put any work into high angle + high velocity guns suitable for AA work)


I just wanted to point out that at Fort Salby Windlord Garsel used time fused artillery to take out eleven dragons who were in the diversionary force. Of course those dragons were flying in close formation, getting individual dragons would probably be harder.

Nicholas
Thanks.
It's been a while since I read these and that bit of the fight obviously slipped my mind.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Fri May 29, 2015 3:48 pm

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I disagree with what you wrote below for a number of reasons


[quote="Jonathan_S] The Sharonan AA fire we've seen to date has all been light to medium automatic weapons. I can't recall if they have the equivalent of time fuzed artillery, but they certainly wouldn't be expected to have VT AA rounds.

(Don't know how effective the predictive spotting Talent would be at AA with time fuzed artillery; it's possible that their pre-cog could iron out both target movement and shell to shell time fuze variations. But I tend to doubt it. And without a home-universe airborne threat to worry about they probably haven't put any work into high angle + high velocity guns suitable for AA work)

The relative short range / low altitude nature of the current AA makes me think that Arcana might be better off looking at transport dragons as high(er) altitude level bombers to just stay out of the AA envelope entirely. Of course do to that you need a bomb that's worth dropping...

If they develop expendable crystals/spellware for trans-portal bombardment then you could utilize them for bombs as well. But then you're back to wondering how many crystals they can afford to lose without creating a production or logistics bottleneck.[/[/quote]
quote]


A Sharonan ground observer network -- with Flickers and Voices substituting for telephones -- a'la the one Claire Lee Chennault wrote of in his “THE ROLE OF DEFENSIVE PURSUIT" will do a great deal to limit the effectiveness of Dragon airpower.

Hap Arnold and the Bomber Barons drove Chennault into retirement for the success of Chennault in 1933 exercises where he countered Air Corps bombers with speed performance in the same range as Dragons.

See:

Captain Claire Lee Chennault “THE ROLE OF DEFENSIVE PURSUIT,” Serialized in the Nov-Dec 1933, Jan Feb 1934, and Mar-Apr 1934 issues of the US Army’s branch publication “Coast Artillery Journal”

http://sill-www.army.mil/ada-online/coa ... y-journal/


See also the photo at this article --

History Friday: Claire Lee Chennault — SECRET AGENT MAN!
http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/40740.html#more-40740
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun May 31, 2015 9:24 am

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Mil-tech bard wrote:I disagree with what you wrote below for a number of reasons
Jonathan_S wrote: The Sharonan AA fire we've seen to date has all been light to medium automatic weapons. I can't recall if they have the equivalent of time fuzed artillery, but they certainly wouldn't be expected to have VT AA rounds.

(Don't know how effective the predictive spotting Talent would be at AA with time fuzed artillery; it's possible that their pre-cog could iron out both target movement and shell to shell time fuze variations. But I tend to doubt it. And without a home-universe airborne threat to worry about they probably haven't put any work into high angle + high velocity guns suitable for AA work)

The relative short range / low altitude nature of the current AA makes me think that Arcana might be better off looking at transport dragons as high(er) altitude level bombers to just stay out of the AA envelope entirely. Of course do to that you need a bomb that's worth dropping...

If they develop expendable crystals/spellware for trans-portal bombardment then you could utilize them for bombs as well. But then you're back to wondering how many crystals they can afford to lose without creating a production or logistics bottleneck.



A Sharonan ground observer network -- with Flickers and Voices substituting for telephones -- a'la the one Claire Lee Chennault wrote of in his “THE ROLE OF DEFENSIVE PURSUIT" will do a great deal to limit the effectiveness of Dragon airpower.

Hap Arnold and the Bomber Barons drove Chennault into retirement for the success of Chennault in 1933 exercises where he countered Air Corps bombers with speed performance in the same range as Dragons.

See:

Captain Claire Lee Chennault “THE ROLE OF DEFENSIVE PURSUIT,” Serialized in the Nov-Dec 1933, Jan Feb 1934, and Mar-Apr 1934 issues of the US Army’s branch publication “Coast Artillery Journal”

http://sill-www.army.mil/ada-online/coa ... y-journal/


See also the photo at this article --

History Friday: Claire Lee Chennault — SECRET AGENT MAN!
http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/40740.html#more-40740
I'm not sure what a spotting network has to do with the inability of AA fire to reach high flying dragons. :?:


Yes, such a network gives early warning and limited raid tracking, allowing you to scramble and position your fighters (pursuit aircraft). A wonderful advantage for them in the pre-radar days.

But without early '30s pursuit airplanes (200+ mph top speed) or high-velocity AA guns in high angle mountings, I'm not sure what even Chennault could have done against 100+ mph high altitude bombers.

So such a network may become a useful part of countering dragons once the Sharonans get aircraft of their own. But prior to that it really only gives you a heads up to take cover - but doesn't assist much in being able to actually hit back against the dragons.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Sun May 31, 2015 10:02 am

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You seem to be a little unclear on the concept of "early warning" here --

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm not sure what a spotting network has to do with the inability of AA fire to reach high flying dragons. :?:


Yes, such a network gives early warning and limited raid tracking, allowing you to scramble and position your fighters (pursuit aircraft). A wonderful advantage for them in the pre-radar days.

But without early '30s pursuit airplanes (200+ mph top speed) or high-velocity AA guns in high angle mountings, I'm not sure what even Chennault could have done against 100+ mph high altitude bombers.

So such a network may become a useful part of countering dragons once the Sharonans get aircraft of their own. But prior to that it really only gives you a heads up to take cover - but doesn't assist much in being able to actually hit back against the dragons.


The ability of such networks to Voice-queue distance viewers to track Arcanian air mobile insertions after they pass through a gate oriented early warning networks means Arcanian raiding strategies within 100 plus miles of a portal or rail road nodal force position are doomed to run into a Bison and heavy artillery equipped Sharonan reaction forces with Voice direction from said distance viewer talents.

Remember, the Sharonan nodal forces can be on armored trains to rapidly get near Arcanian ground forces after the dragon transport drops them off. Trains that can move at up to 60 miles (100km) an hour.

Once the Sharonans get any Arcanian ground force -- other than unicorns -- under their Bison towed artillery fan. They are not getting away.

Arcanians cannot afford to commit dragons to pick up Arcanian forces inside Sharonan timed fragmentation artillery shell range.

Of course, the Arcanians have to take the casualties to learn this first.
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