Sharonian Aircraft?

Regarding supply lines and production.

We know very little about Arcana but we do have some numbers for Sharona. We know the total Sharonan population is roughly 10 billion (see Jathmar's reflections on his mapping talent at the start of Hell's Gate where he says 20% of the Sharonan population is talented and that equals 2 billion talented). We also know that Sharona has technology roughly equivalent to Earth at 1900. We know industrialization across Sharona and its colonies varies.

Given what we have seen I suspect they are much more equal then Earth was at that time. I expect places like Russia and places like England but no where like China. I would guess the average is comparable to France.

If you think about what France managed in World War I with a population of about 41 million I would be very hesitant to say Sharona can't defend a supply line limited to one universe. I would also be very hesitant to say that any quantity of production is impossible for them.

Nicholas

brnicholas wrote:Regarding supply lines and production.

We know very little about Arcana but we do have some numbers for Sharona. We know the total Sharonan population is roughly 10 billion (see Jathmar's reflections on his mapping talent at the start of Hell's Gate where he says 20% of the Sharonan population is talented and that equals 2 billion talented). We also know that Sharona has technology roughly equivalent to Earth at 1900. We know industrialization across Sharona and its colonies varies.

Given what we have seen I suspect they are much more equal then Earth was at that time. I expect places like Russia and places like England but no where like China. I would guess the average is comparable to France.

If you think about what France managed in World War I with a population of about 41 million I would be very hesitant to say Sharona can't defend a supply line limited to one universe. I would also be very hesitant to say that any quantity of production is impossible for them.

Nicholas

I will make this note, much of the population more than a couple of gates from the homeworld will be strung out along the route from one gate to the next, where they will be providing fresh foodstuffs and other consumables for those transiting the route, with the next being those that provide raw material shipped back for processing. Most of those worlds will be nearly unpopulated.

Finished goods are unlikely to be produced too many gates from home if for no other reason than access to markets, and mid-chain inputs. There are likely religious and other separatists that have moved as far from the gates as they viewed practical, just to be left alone.

Since we are diverting from the aircraft discussion, recall that Sharon will be getting whale/dolphin support. They will have the equivalent of submarine attacks and water surveillance.

Also the best weapon Sharon has is an idea. What happens when people without magic learn that they can replace their magical rulers with technology. I presume that the Arcana world is all magic based - including agriculture, manufacturing, transportation and warfare. At least in some countries the gifted rule. Even if the peasants could revolt they probably couldn't feed themselves without the magic grain mill and other necessities that a population that size needs. This will change when technology is introduced.

Welcome to the forums! I hope you have fun here.

I think you are right about the power of the idea of comfortable living without magic will have on Arcana but it will take a long time to have any effect. My sense is only in Mythal does the difference between Gifted and non-Gifted produce real abuses of power. I think in Andara the more important difference is probably rank within the aristocracy (which doesn't directly match Gifted or not). I think in Ransar being born Gifted is like being born rich in America, it gives advantages but there are limits. In all three cases the benefits the Gifted give everyone will serve to justify their privileges.

If Arcanan society is not under serious stress I would expect it to take centuries for this idea to have significant effects. If the war becomes nasty enough that Aracana is forced to start conscripting Gifted and rationing the civilian use of magic then the idea is likely to gain influence a lot faster.

Nicholas

Neugs2002 wrote:Since we are diverting from the aircraft discussion, recall that Sharon will be getting whale/dolphin support. They will have the equivalent of submarine attacks and water surveillance.

Also the best weapon Sharon has is an idea. What happens when people without magic learn that they can replace their magical rulers with technology. I presume that the Arcana world is all magic based - including agriculture, manufacturing, transportation and warfare. At least in some countries the gifted rule. Even if the peasants could revolt they probably couldn't feed themselves without the magic grain mill and other necessities that a population that size needs. This will change when technology is introduced.

brnicholas wrote:Welcome to the forums! I hope you have fun here.

I think you are right about the power of the idea of comfortable living without magic will have on Arcana but it will take a long time to have any effect. My sense is only in Mythal does the difference between Gifted and non-Gifted produce real abuses of power. I think in Andara the more important difference is probably rank within the aristocracy (which doesn't directly match Gifted or not). I think in Ransar being born Gifted is like being born rich in America, it gives advantages but there are limits. In all three cases the benefits the Gifted give everyone will serve to justify their privileges.

If Arcanan society is not under serious stress I would expect it to take centuries for this idea to have significant effects. If the war becomes nasty enough that Aracana is forced to start conscripting Gifted and rationing the civilian use of magic then the idea is likely to gain influence a lot faster.

Nicholas

Neugs2002 wrote:Since we are diverting from the aircraft discussion, recall that Sharon will be getting whale/dolphin support. They will have the equivalent of submarine attacks and water surveillance.

Also the best weapon Sharon has is an idea. What happens when people without magic learn that they can replace their magical rulers with technology. I presume that the Arcana world is all magic based - including agriculture, manufacturing, transportation and warfare. At least in some countries the gifted rule. Even if the peasants could revolt they probably couldn't feed themselves without the magic grain mill and other necessities that a population that size needs. This will change when technology is introduced.

Will it take centuries? I can see Arcana focusing their Gifted into manufacturing more weapons non-Gifted might use in the war. That would segregate Arcanan society into affluent and safe and useless, expendable rabble. Most folks might not see it quite like that but the un-gifted sent to the front will find that POV easy to adopt.

If Arcanan societies don't do this, they will be killing their Gifted. That means killing the source of their affluence and economic means of production. I can see Ransarans and Andarans sending their Gifted in equal proportion to their non-Gifted, but not Mythalans. Over time that would shift the powerbase substantially in Arcana. I doubt either Andara or Ransar would facilitate that regardless of their desires.

brnicholas wrote:In summary I think if the Sharonans send the mechanized forces they are bring up ahead with enough supplies for a couple of months (note the steamers can burn wood, grass and most anything else so they don't need to bring material for them) to seize the next portal in the chain and thus hurt the Arcanans when they try to use it. Put a couple of companies of troops on each train a universe back and then send them back on the empty trains. And run the trains frequently enough that their movement amounts to a patrol of the tracks. I don't think Arcanan efforts to raid Sharonan supply lines will prevent the Sharonans from advancing rapidly. I speculate they might be able to lay track under this regime at a rate of 25 miles a day, but that is pure speculation, the great authors, long may they write, will decide that.

Ignoring Civil War Cavalry style raids to rip up and destroy tracking; I wonder how hard it is to whip up the spellware for a magical landmine?

Running your patrols of flak & machine gun equipped trains through hundreds of miles of a contested universe is going to be pretty hard if the trains start randomly exploding.


A transport dragon could easily allow the emplacement of demolition charged along widely separated areas of track without ever going within sight, much less weapons range of, of your armed and armored transport trains.


So the question seems to become; are there Talents to monitor for this, or search out the demolition charges? I guess sufficiently focused pre-cog could, by seeing the train explode then send a patrol ahead to clear the area observed. But that's a vanishingly rare Talent.


Hmm, and you'd have to leave permanent defenses for each major engineering work along the line, otherwise a blown bridge or tunnel, or landslide in a cut, could block your rail supply for weeks at least. (And not just anti-air; you need to protect against a infantry or cavalry raids which using only transport dragons to rapidly bring troops into the area but stay outside your own weapon range)

That kind of circles back to the thread's original aircraft point. Without the ability to chase down and eliminate the dragons, especially the transport dragons, they can be a massive nuisance by giving the Arcanans unmatched theater mobility. Sure once you manage to seize a portal you've got a chance to inflict heavy losses on any dragons attempting to move though that (relative) choke point. But while fighting across a world between portals they're way more mobile than Sharonan forces are.

Replying to JS's points, in different order.

2- First Arcanan's would need to think of this.
1- For that matter, they'd need to think of this!

3- Sharonan Talents would not need to Pre-Cog the
explosion, if they Saw the Magic-mine in the first place.

4- This was my argument upthread.
But it occurs to me that I was optimistic about
the Arcanans.
Have they Weaknesses?
W-1 lack of numbers. Only two cavalry "regiments"
(which number fewer than infantry battalions),
and then the Augmented Horses were decimated at Salby!
That leaves the Main Force with the Unicorns.
CarthosForce has no Equines at all.
W-2 Dragons are vulnerable to firearms, expecially
artillery but rifles too, especially massed rifles.
Dragons are too precious to allow within range of
Sharonan fire, so they must flee any approaching
Sharonans, and must take their infantry with them.

Depending on how Weber&Presby choose to write it,
a large Sharonan force has chances to advance,
on both fronts.

Which brings me back to JS's Point 1-
1- ISTM that a Transport Dragon would be very good at
ripping up tracking. With one claw, or maybe two, it
could pull up a rail. Then it could fly that rail ten
miles away, and drop it into a river or pond.
Rinse and repeat, and keep away from approaching trains!

HTM

[quote="Jonathan_S"]

1- Ignoring Civil War Cavalry style raids to rip up
and destroy tracking;
2- I wonder how hard it is to whip up the spellware for
a magical landmine?

Running your patrols of flak & machine gun equipped trains through hundreds of miles of a contested universe is going to be pretty hard if the trains start randomly exploding.


A transport dragon could easily allow the emplacement of demolition charged along widely separated areas of track without ever going within sight, much less weapons range of, of your armed and armored transport trains.


3- So the question seems to become;
are there Talents to monitor for this,
or search out the demolition charges?
I guess sufficiently focused pre-cog could,
by seeing the train explode then send a patrol
ahead to clear the area observed.
But that's a vanishingly rare Talent.


Hmm, and you'd have to leave permanent defenses for each major engineering work along the line, otherwise a blown bridge or tunnel, or landslide in a cut, could block your rail supply for weeks at least. (And not just anti-air; you need to protect against a infantry or cavalry raids which using only transport dragons to rapidly bring troops into the area but stay outside your own weapon range)

4- That kind of circles back to the thread's original aircraft point. Without the ability to chase down and eliminate the dragons, especially the transport dragons, they can be a massive nuisance by giving the Arcanans unmatched theater mobility. Sure once you manage to seize a portal you've got a chance to inflict heavy losses on any dragons attempting to move though that (relative) choke point. But while fighting across a world between portals they're way more mobile than Sharonan forces are.
[/quote=Jonathan S.]

Another random nasty through on Arcana anti-logistic attacks. How much weight can a gryphon carry, and can it be controlled well enough (closer to Arcana) to carry incendiaries and drop them in rail yards, warehouses, or ports?

They're fast and maneuverable enough to be a vastly harder target than an attacking dragon, and rail yards, warehouses, and ports tend to be quite flammable.

Could also potentially be usable against even defended railway bridges (if any) assuming frontier bridges would be wooden, not stone or metal. (Although the railway may be organized enough to have standard metal bridge components they just ship upline from a factory; in which case this target is far less feasible)


For that matter could Arcana produce some variant of the bizarre USAF bat bombing project? Small, possibly spell controlled, flying animals that could carry incendiaries (whether chemical or spellware based) by stealth into flammable logistics and/or distribution points.

The Strike Gryphons were all thrown away at Fort Salby.
Whether they were intended for that fate,
or whether Harshu meant to retrive them,
only Weber&Evans know for sure.
I have a guess, but posting it would be fanfiction.

More are not easily availible,
and might not be provided if they were.
They were shown attacking with tooth&claw only.

The Recon Gryphons are not used in battle.
They seem to be too sweet to fight.

When Arcanans want something burnt, they send a
fire-dragon. Until they met Sharonan firearms, they
didn't have to worry about it being a target.

HTM

Jonathan_S wrote:Another random nasty through on Arcana anti-logistic attacks. How much weight can a gryphon carry, and can it be controlled well enough (closer to Arcana) to carry incendiaries and drop them in rail yards, warehouses, or ports?

They're fast and maneuverable enough to be a vastly harder target than an attacking dragon, and rail yards, warehouses, and ports tend to be quite flammable.

Could also potentially be usable against even defended railway bridges (if any) assuming frontier bridges would be wooden, not stone or metal. (Although the railway may be organized enough to have standard metal bridge components they just ship upline from a factory; in which case this target is far less feasible)


For that matter could Arcana produce some variant of the bizarre USAF bat bombing project? Small, possibly spell controlled, flying animals that could carry incendiaries (whether chemical or spellware based) by stealth into flammable logistics and/or distribution points.

People here are having some real order of magnitude error issues concerning Sharona's railway logistics.

The American Civil War Union Army railroad construction force consisted of roughly 10,000, usually railway engineers plus whatever troops were on hand at the moment not needed for combat and garrison duty, and as many of the local able-bodied black population who they paid or were willing to work for food. The skill set of any given Union volunteer regiment was astonishing.

They could repair or rebuild railways and bridges very quickly, with
1) A railway rebuild rate of around 7-10km a day,
2) A railway repair rate of 25km a day and,
3) A gauge change rate of 30km a day.

By way of comparison, the labor forces of the Union and Central Pacifics engaged in building the first trans-continental railroad, which was about 10,000 men. It takes a population of about 100,000 to support 10,000 men in such an effort.

The 1862-1865 Union Army was backed up by a civilian agricultural and industrial population of 22-25 million people.

An idea of what a partially mobilized circa 1900 technology Sharonan military-railway organization could do comes from the Armchair General web site below:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... p?t=133563.


"A short description of Soviet logistical methods is that they depended entirely on railways for strategic movement up to the frontline. In order to achieve this the NKPS (Soviet State Railways) was fully integrated into the RKKA Rear Services Command and was under command of their VOSO Military Transport Directorate. The Railway Brigades were from 1943 under the NKPS to provide light engineering support while heavy engineering was provided by UVVR Groups of the GUVVR Directorate of the NKPS. Command ran through the military command structure while the civilian NKPS provided the railwaymen and materials. The RKKA Railway Brigades numbered around 30 and 250,000 men towards the end of the war and a similar number were in the Highway Construction Battalions.

To give you an idea of the size of this operation, the NKPS numbered around 2,500,000 men in peacetime and 4,000,000 during the war.

They achieved what the Union troops achieved during the American Civil War, that they could repair or rebuild railways and bridges at a fantastic rate (even when they had been mined to prevent their rebuilding) with a rebuilding rate of around 7-10km, repairs at 25km and gauge change of 30km a day. Given that Combined Arms armies advanced at an average rate of 25km per day, the railways were mostly not far behind them. Of course Tank Armies advanced at 70km per day and so far outstripped the railways but then came to a halt on their objective and waited for the main force to catch up. They matched the Union troops claim that "They can rebuild bridges faster than the Rebs can burn them down." so although the Germans destroyed often 100% of the railways, they were back up and running in a matter of weeks. There are lots of examples in the Armchair General thread which go into the details."

The Soviet Union's population was 196,716,000 in June 1941.

Sharona's population is 10 billion.

The Sharonans will cover a 1,000km distance in 100 to 150 days. That is three to five months. _Per workforce of 10,000 workers_

The mass that even a Sharonan single track railway delivers is a large multiple of what an Arcanian "Mage-way" can deliver.

Exactly how many of these 10K railway building units do you think the Sharonans can field given a 10 billion person population and a huge Multiverse spanning railway NGO corporation to pull railway experts from?