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Sharonian Aircraft?

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:30 am

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goglen wrote:
Don't forget the possibly subtle suggestion - magic's power is decreasing within the Arcanian incursion into Sharona, just as Sharonian "talent" is losing viability the farther into Arcana.

Whether that is distance or time related... is not known. But that could make dragons and levitation-spells, very less reliable.


Excellent point. That brings up two issues:
1) Does that mean each side will have to adopt the others tech to prosecute the war to their satisfaction or does that mean the war will be fought only in the middle universes?

2) Does Mythal even want to prosecute a war if it means actually going closer to their idea of hell? The closer they go the Sharona the more their magisters separate themselves from the devine source of their magic. That is damning themselves or a real close approximation in their theology.

I can't wait to see how it plays out and how many other civs pour through Hell's Gate.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:40 pm

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Peter,
Where is the Textev for
your description of
the Mythalian "idea of hell?"

IMHO you are relying on your own ideas.
As Cromwell said: "Consider that you may be mistaken!"

HTM

PeterZ wrote:[snip - htm]
2) Does Mythal even want to prosecute a war if it means actually going closer to their *idea of hell*? The closer they go to Sharona, the more their magisters separate themselves from the divine source of their magic. That is damning themselves or a real close approximation in their theology.

I can't wait to see how it plays out and how many other civs pour through Hell's Gate.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:43 pm

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Weber told us:
It is Universe related.
Every time they pass through a Portal,
their Talent-strength changes.

HTM

goglen wrote:
Don't forget the possibly subtle suggestion - magic's power is decreasing within the Arcanian incursion into Sharona, just as Sharonian "talent" is losing viability the farther into Arcana.

Whether that is distance or time related... is not known. But that could make dragons and levitation-spells, very less reliable.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:58 pm

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1 Then S. must use more transport - conveyed - to
supply the depots. All supply convoys must themselves
be supplied.

2 Yes! Of course!

3 Simply?
A supply line 40,000 miles long,
which crosses 6,000 miles of ocean once,
and then two more Water Gaps,
is *not* simple.

4 IMHO the Arcanans need never go through a Gate to
attack the Sharonan LoC. **Never**
It will be *plenty* long enough in the Universe
which they are contesting at the time.

5 Are you presuming that Sharona has *Huge* resources,
availible merely for the calling-up, at the Front?
This despite distractions from Chava, and other
internal problems?

I guess that S might need 20 people and 20 machines on
the LoC, for every one at the Front.
Forty Thousand Miles!

Re: ambushes, The Arcanans will see the Sharonans
coming, from the air. Nuff said.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:
1 Motorized transport allows Sharona to move
supplies ahead of the railhead. If they create
well defended depots,
[snip - htm]
2 I suspect that Arcanan light and heavy cavalry shipped around by transport dragons are a better strategic and tactical proposition.

3 Even so there is a limit to that utility.
Sharona will *simply* move in larger forces to
make ambushes more costly for Arcana.

4 Eventually, Sharona will have reached far enough so that Arcana will have to fight 2-3 portals behind Sharonan lines to hit their supplies. That is more than a little risky.

I believe Sharona can push Arcana back because they can arm any trooper with their most powerful weapons, while arcana requires some arcane ability to utilize their truly powerful weapons. That suggests that the Sharonans can concentrate more firepower per unit than Arcana can. Sure Some Arcana units will have truly powerful weapons, but the number of those units depend on a small portion of the Arcana Gifted population in addition to training and production limits. Sharona's only limitation is training and production as anyone can operate any weapon.

5 The speed of any Sharonan advance might be slowed by Arcanan LoC attacks, but I don't think it will be stopped. The exposure to those types of attacks will be at most 2 universes behind the front. That's a lot of territory for sure, but Sharona only needs to protect the convoys and push the front further. As they push the front closer to Arcana, Arcana air mobile forces would have to pull back or risk running to a truly heavy concentration of troops being sent up the chain from the universes being consolidated.

Again, the key is the concentration of firepower. Sharonan units can manage this better if they pick their time and place to fight. Arcana needs surprise to manage greater concentration of firepower. That brings me to the final point. The Calirath talent can be "turned on" in someone with the blood and the Imperial healers know how to do that. Dollars to donughts Andrin turns on quite a few more Calirath's prcognative abilities for deployemnt in this war. I say Adrin because it is well telegraphed that her father will die shortly by (I suspect) Chava's hand.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I deem those logistics *very* optimistic.
En march, driving motorized vehicles quickly,
they stop, cut down trees,, and feed the green wood
directly into their fuel boxes!
Wood is not as efficient as gas, or even coal.

They would be in the Siberian Tundra, not the Russian
forests. How much wood do you expect them to find?
If they send a Wood-cutting Party away from their Main
Force, it becomes very vulnerable - and they'd need to
do that often. Or else the Main Force can move from
grove to grove in search of the wood.

Not to mention that they must carry all of their own
spare parts, all of their own ammo, and all of their
own food. They can not use Air Search to find herds of
game animals, as the Arcanans can. There are no farms
planted on the tundra yet, so finding grains, vegetables,
and fruits would be time-consuming.
Etc, Etc.

It is 1200+ miles from Salby across Karys to Mosenak,
and about that much more from Mosenak to Ghartoum, only
that trip is across the Sahara Desert!

Of course Weber&Presby can write it that way if they
choose to. They are good enough to make it seem
possible, even reasonable.

HTM
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:15 pm

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I inferred that from their idea of religion. The Gifted pursue the study of magic as the ultimate goal in the process of reincarnation. Each incarnation leads a human closer and closer to being able to understand magic better. Salvation is becomming one with magic and the universe. Magic and the study of magic is the purpose of the Mythal culture and religion.

Without magic their religion is empty of purpose. It follows that in Sharona where magic can't exist, hell must be found. Hell where is the study of magic and so salvation or enlightenment is absolutely impossile. From a Christian perspective that would be like going to the one place where even one's faith cannot connect the believer to God. That's the definition of Hell.

Of course, I might be mistaken. That is the nature of speculation. Shall I stop speculating? I think not.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Peter,
Where is the Textev for
your description of
the Mythalian "idea of hell?"

IMHO you are relying on your own ideas.
As Cromwell said: "Consider that you may be mistaken!"

HTM

PeterZ wrote:[snip - htm]
2) Does Mythal even want to prosecute a war if it means actually going closer to their *idea of hell*? The closer they go to Sharona, the more their magisters separate themselves from the divine source of their magic. That is damning themselves or a real close approximation in their theology.

I can't wait to see how it plays out and how many other civs pour through Hell's Gate.
Last edited by PeterZ on Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:41 pm

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3. Yes, simply. The solution is simple, its execution is difficult. The one thing that suggests itself to me is that Arcana has tighter limits on their industry than Sharonans. Magic requires the Gift, training and aptitude while technology requires only training and aptitude. That implies that once on a full war footing the resources the Sharonans can bring to bear on the fighting will be greater than the Arcanans.

Supplying machine guns that anyone gan manage to protect shipments is a matter of logistics not an impossible level of resources to deploy.

5. Not huge as much as more than Arcana can supply for a given population. It is suggested that Arcana is actually significantly bigger than Sharona, given the distance from Hell's Gate to the Arcanan capital. That might make things more difficult initially for Sharona. However, the production cyles for Arcanan weapons systems like dragons are much longer. That implies more assets devoted to producing those systems. 20 years to breed and train dragons means resources to raise and train 20 years worth of dragons. In other words there needs to be assets sufficient to keep 20 times the required number of dragons operational for the war.

Assuming that many if not all Arcanan biological systems work under similar breeding cycles, then to increase the number of these systems requires a massive amount of resources devoted to those systems.

While Sharona still needs to build factories, their production times are much shorter and so the amount of assets required to produce weapons systems are also much smaller relative to systems produced. In addition, anyone with training and aptitude can participate in war production. Arcana requires some measure of Gift to participate in their production meathods.

So, the issue isn't huge resources that Sharona has that arcana doesn't, but how many assets need to be devoted to support a given level of war production. As that demand for weapons rise, Arcana will hit their limits much sooner than Sharona.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:1 Then S. must use more transport - conveyed - to
supply the depots. All supply convoys must themselves
be supplied.

2 Yes! Of course!

3 Simply?
A supply line 40,000 miles long,
which crosses 6,000 miles of ocean once,
and then two more Water Gaps,
is *not* simple.

4 IMHO the Arcanans need never go through a Gate to
attack the Sharonan LoC. **Never**
It will be *plenty* long enough in the Universe
which they are contesting at the time.

5 Are you presuming that Sharona has *Huge* resources,
availible merely for the calling-up, at the Front?
This despite distractions from Chava, and other
internal problems?

I guess that S might need 20 people and 20 machines on
the LoC, for every one at the Front.
Forty Thousand Miles!

Re: ambushes, The Arcanans will see the Sharonans
coming, from the air. Nuff said.

HTM
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by goglen   » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:02 pm

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PeterZ wrote:While Sharona still needs to build factories, their production times are much shorter and so the amount of assets required to produce weapons systems are also much smaller relative to systems produced. In addition, anyone with training and aptitude can participate in war production. Arcana requires some measure of Gift to participate in their production meathods.


Don't forget how few people it took Arcanians to very quickly build boats. All they need to do is ship their crystals full of magic around. The wood cuts and shapes itself, and is rapidly assembled.

Mechanical assembly is far slower and far more labor & resource-intensive.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:02 pm

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goglen wrote:
PeterZ wrote:While Sharona still needs to build factories, their production times are much shorter and so the amount of assets required to produce weapons systems are also much smaller relative to systems produced. In addition, anyone with training and aptitude can participate in war production. Arcana requires some measure of Gift to participate in their production meathods.


Don't forget how few people it took Arcanians to very quickly build boats. All they need to do is ship their crystals full of magic around. The wood cuts and shapes itself, and is rapidly assembled.

Mechanical assembly is far slower and far more labor & resource-intensive.


How many Gifted magisters requiring years of training does it take to create the crystal? How many crystals can Arcana make in 1 day? Compare that to a factory that can take anyone and train them to work an assembly line making rifles and bullets.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by goglen   » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:53 pm

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PeterZ wrote:How many Gifted magisters requiring years of training does it take to create the crystal? How many crystals can Arcana make in 1 day? Compare that to a factory that can take anyone and train them to work an assembly line making rifles and bullets.


Well, clearly from the "normal" speed of shipbuilding at the long, lonely end of a very long Arcanian "stick" (3 months travel?), they clearly have great spell-generating capacity.

Imagine if they divert spell-capture from other portal chains to focus against Sharona?

Don't forget, the Arcanian forward push down the Sharonian chain appeared to not care about conserving "spell crystals", which, by itself, implies they did not need to "desperately" pull resources from home or other chains to this new front.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:39 pm

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The last time Arcana faced total war was 200 years ago. They don't realize how much of a given asset they will need to accomplish tactical and strategic goals. Initially the sneak attack was a cake walk. By the end Arcana was short on dragons and wouldn't risk them.

Sure there are plenty of accumulators now. What happens when those crystals are destroyed? When artillery and mortars target them specifically? How difficult will they be to replace?

I suspect that magic can be labor saving. The degree that a magic driven economy can out produce a tech driven one, depends on how much labor is saved and how many people can use magic to produce things. We see that Mythalans, the society the understands magic best has a poorer per capita standard of living than Ransarans. That argues magic has its limits. If its impact were limitless, Mythalans wouldn't need their serfs to support their study of magic.

So the logistical questions arise. Can Arcana's greater size but limited gifted population out produce Sharona's smaller size but much higher percentage participation in supporting total war? We'll see. I suspect that Sharona CAN outproduce Arcana once fully mobilized.

goglen wrote:
PeterZ wrote:How many Gifted magisters requiring years of training does it take to create the crystal? How many crystals can Arcana make in 1 day? Compare that to a factory that can take anyone and train them to work an assembly line making rifles and bullets.


Well, clearly from the "normal" speed of shipbuilding at the long, lonely end of a very long Arcanian "stick" (3 months travel?), they clearly have great spell-generating capacity.

Imagine if they divert spell-capture from other portal chains to focus against Sharona?

Don't forget, the Arcanian forward push down the Sharonian chain appeared to not care about conserving "spell crystals", which, by itself, implies they did not need to "desperately" pull resources from home or other chains to this new front.
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