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Sharonian Aircraft?

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by CathyH   » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:15 pm

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Given that Arcana can deploy Dragons and Griffons. Would Sharona, already experimenting with gasoline engines be able to develop and effective Air Force. Say something at about 1915 early 1916 levels. In other words, Interrupter gear, rotary engines, aircraft like the Fokker Eindecker and the early Sopwiths, like the Scout and Pup?
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Rebel67   » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:09 am

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This civilization has been able to advance from a simple wood fired locomotive to the Pallidan (sp?) series, but doesn't have a gasoline engine yet (as far as I have read). Their smallest steam engine is probably too heavy for the horsepower to weight ratio they would need for the development of effective air transportation. Maybe they will have advanced that far by the time another book in this series can be written & published.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by KNick   » Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:04 pm

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Rebel67 wrote:This civilization has been able to advance from a simple wood fired locomotive to the Pallidan (sp?) series, but doesn't have a gasoline engine yet (as far as I have read). Their smallest steam engine is probably too heavy for the horsepower to weight ratio they would need for the development of effective air transportation. Maybe they will have advanced that far by the time another book in this series can be written & published.



Welcome to the forums. Enjoy your time here.

As far as I can remember, there was, up until now, no reason to move beyond steam. Unless someone is already experimenting with liquid fuel engines, there is not going to be any rapid developments. Even then, it will take lots of time to build successful planes.
_


Try to take a fisherman's fish and you will be tomorrows bait!!!
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:05 pm

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Sharona will need to either invent airplanes,
or else find an ally from another universe, who has them.

HTM

Rebel67 wrote:This civilization has been able to advance from a simple wood fired locomotive to the Pallidan (sp?) series, but doesn't have a gasoline engine yet (as far as I have read). Their smallest steam engine is probably too heavy for the horsepower to weight ratio they would need for the development of effective air transportation. Maybe they will have advanced that far by the time another book in this series can be written & published.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:20 pm

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They have IC engines. Shaylar commented that her family's land had oil and she hoped the "new" engines would indeed make her cousins wealthy. She wasn't confident at allbut could hope for the best.


KNick wrote:
Rebel67 wrote:This civilization has been able to advance from a simple wood fired locomotive to the Pallidan (sp?) series, but doesn't have a gasoline engine yet (as far as I have read). Their smallest steam engine is probably too heavy for the horsepower to weight ratio they would need for the development of effective air transportation. Maybe they will have advanced that far by the time another book in this series can be written & published.



Welcome to the forums. Enjoy your time here.

As far as I can remember, there was, up until now, no reason to move beyond steam. Unless someone is already experimenting with liquid fuel engines, there is not going to be any rapid developments. Even then, it will take lots of time to build successful planes.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Rebel67   » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:37 pm

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[quote="PeterZ"]They have IC engines. Shaylar commented that her family's land had oil and she hoped the "new" engines would indeed make her cousins wealthy. She wasn't confident at allbut could hope for the best.


We must remember that this is a work of fiction. The author(s) get a wide range of freedom and can do almost anything they can imagine. This could lead to some interesting talents and/or gifts. Could magic backfire???
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by CathyH   » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:50 pm

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Rebel67 wrote:
PeterZ wrote:They have IC engines. Shaylar commented that her family's land had oil and she hoped the "new" engines would indeed make her cousins wealthy. She wasn't confident at allbut could hope for the best.


We must remember that this is a work of fiction. The author(s) get a wide range of freedom and can do almost anything they can imagine. This could lead to some interesting talents and/or gifts. Could magic backfire???

The Wright brothers flew in 1903. By 1909 Bleriot had crossed the channel in a far more advanced aircraft. By 1918 the aircraft had firmly established itself as a weapon. War tend s to speed up development, Faced with a need to counter Arcana's dragons, I could see Sharona pressing ahead with rapid development of heavier than air craft
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Castenea   » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:43 pm

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CathyH wrote:The Wright brothers flew in 1903. By 1909 Bleriot had crossed the channel in a far more advanced aircraft. By 1918 the aircraft had firmly established itself as a weapon. War tend s to speed up development, Faced with a need to counter Arcana's dragons, I could see Sharona pressing ahead with rapid development of heavier than air craft

I would note that the Wright flyer was more of a technology demonstrator, than a breakthrough, and it was others who really pushed the technology after the Wrights had their success. Also there were ongoing experiments with various air craft from the 1870's, and the Wright flyer was an extension of work with gliders that had been going on internationally for over a decade.

A combination of technologies in the 1880s to 1890s made the internal combustion engine practical. These included practical fuel, reliable ignition systems, and functional sliding seals.
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by brnicholas   » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:57 pm

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Eventually they probably can develop in a decade or so the air force but they don't need to and it won't do them a lot of good.

Hell Hath No Fury demonstrated decisively that:

1) Relatively light Sharonan ground weapons are easily capable of taking out attacking battle dragons.
2) Sharonan ground weapons are longer ranged then battle dragon breath weapons.
3) Dragon pilots generally don't fly at night.

Given these three things a few machine guns configured for anti-aircraft work and manned from an hour before dawn to an hour after dusk will turn battle dragons into a very minor threat.

The transport capabilities of dragons are another matter, but the air force you are proposing can't do much about that. When the Arcanans develop true night flight capability for their battle dragons, they already seem to have all the pieces required they just haven't applied it, it will also be another matter. But the air force you are proposing can't do a thing about that.

Nicholas
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Re: Sharonian Aircraft?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:53 am

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Welcome, brnicholas!

1) Yes, once the battle dragons come into the range of
the ground weapons. That leaves *lots* of airspace out
of ground-range, for the dragons to fly in. The dragons
can fly circles around the ground-weapons - literally!
Also note that at Salby the transports landed behind a
hill, which protected them from ground-fire.

2) Yes, and yet at Salby the battle dragons all fired
their lighting-bolts, and even their fireballs.
(They might have been shot out of the air before any
fireball could be in range, but Weber&Evans wrote their
story otherwise.)
Also please note that the lightning bolts have a longer
range than the fireballs or poison gas clouds. Sharonan
rifles seem to outrange the poison gas clouds, and
machine guns might outrange the fireballs "on the level"
but not when the machineguns are shooting "up" and the
fireballs are moving "down." The lightning bolts have
greater range, and can hit moving targets.
Of course all the above is subject to the Authors' whims.

4) This means that Sharonan units can *defend* themselves
against attack from battle dragons. If the dragons stay
out of range, then the Sharonans can't touch them.
The dragons might be forced to abandon any particular
ground position that they had hoped to defend, *BUT*
they can retreat from any Sharonan ground force, and
then circle around behind it and cut its supply lines.
Remember that the distance from FT. Salby to Ft. Mosanak
is more than 1,000 miles, across the Grocyran (Siberian)
tundra. That leaves a *much* longer LoC than Sharona's
Army can possibly defend.

The Sharonans will need "something" fast enought to
catch dragons, if they are to advance from one Portal to
another, much less win the war. They are now
experimenting with internal combustion vehicles, the
counterpart of the tank. Can you imagine tanks trying to
catch airplanes?
Sharona *needs* an air force, with air-to-air fighters,
somehow or other. Whether machines, animals, or magical
machinegun-equiped flying carpets, They need something!

HTM

brnicholas wrote:Eventually they probably can develop in a decade or so the air force but they don't need to and it won't do them a lot of good.

Hell Hath No Fury demonstrated decisively that:

1) Relatively light Sharonan ground weapons are easily capable of taking out attacking battle dragons.
2) Sharonan ground weapons are longer ranged then battle dragon breath weapons.
3) Dragon pilots generally don't fly at night.

4) Given these three things a few machine guns configured for anti-aircraft work and manned from an hour before dawn to an hour after dusk will turn battle dragons into a very minor threat.

The transport capabilities of dragons are another matter, but the air force you are proposing can't do much about that. When the Arcanans develop true night flight capability for their battle dragons, they already seem to have all the pieces required they just haven't applied it, it will also be another matter. But the air force you are proposing can't do a thing about that.

Nicholas
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