Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Sort of snippet

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Sort of snippet
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:24 am

Howard T. Map-addict
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1392
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

(1) Plot-wise this snippet reads (to me) less like New
Work, than like the original Last Scene of HHNF, cut
from it on grounds of the book being more dramatic
without it. After all, it merely reinforces and
reiterates the actual last scene.
Thus it may have been deleted as "redundant."
But it does very well to feed our greed.

Update after reading Snippet #1:
My Opinion here was wrong.
We are now shown that this was New Work;
the beginning of ROAD TO HELL. HTM 6/5/15

(2) Emperor Chava Bursa: I have some ideas for "nice"
things he might do before he attacks, to try to make
himself look better to the rest of Sharona.
But I would commit Fanfiction to post them here.
Besides, they are obvious, so Weber, Evans, and Presby
have likely thought of them.

HTM

JimHacker wrote:Have to say I'm thrilled to see some progress on this.

This is one of my favourite series, due to its immense and unique potential.

I think that
(1) plot-wise the snippet hasn't already told us
anything we don't already know. We already had
mostly guessed that she was going to go for a
Uromathian prince, rather than a Prince of Uromthia.

(2) And given that Bursa is already making plans with
the Seneschal to strike down the emperor, I think we
all have a fair idea of what his reaction is going
to be don't we? Even if we don't take into account
the visions of the Emperor dead, the city burning
and so on.

What's going to be more interesting is how Bursa's people react (such as Sunlord Markan), and how the war will turn out. What will be the reaction of the Arcanans to steam engines and the speed the Sharonans can lay track? What tricks will they pull out of their bag? How will things play out back on Arcana? Will Sharona invent the combustion egine hinted at and develop flying machines of their own? So much to explore!
Last edited by Howard T. Map-addict on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Re: Sort of snippet
Post by hvb   » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:27 am

hvb
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:00 pm

Yesss!

I too have been looking forward to seeing progress in this series.

I think DrakBibliophile is right that Chava will face increased opposition at home, now that the Crown has (well, soon will have) blackened his eye. :mrgreen:



If the Arcanans are confounded by the Sharonians tech, they will be stupefied when they run into Earth in a few books time! ;)

I can hardly contain my gleeful anticipation. :twisted:

JimHacker wrote:Have to say I'm thrilled to see some progress on this.

This is one of my favourite series, due to its immense and unique potential.

[snip]

What's going to be more interesting is how Bursa's people react (such as Sunlord Markan), and how the war will turn out. What will be the reaction of the Arcanans to steam engines and the speed the Sharonans can lay track? What tricks will they pull out of their bag? How will things play out back on Arcana? Will Sharona invent the combustion egine hinted at and develop flying machines of their own? So much to explore!
Top
Re: Sort of snippet
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:30 pm

Howard T. Map-addict
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1392
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

It is on page 749 of HG that the Text tells us that
Chava has three (3) sons, total, married or not.
(I'm sure that any married one would dump his wife for
a marriage with Princess Andrin! :x )

If my weird idea hit the mark, if this "Sort of snippet"
is an original chapter from HHNF that was replaced by
the Textual last chapter,
Then the Change in the number of Chava's sons
might have been *from* the five unmarried here,
*to* the three in the Text.

But that is a Double Maybe.

HTM

tonyz wrote:[snip]
2) I thought Chava had four sons, not five, based on previous books. I suppose one might have just been born, or perhaps reached marriageable age, in the interim.
[snip]
Top
Re: Sort of snippet
Post by goglen   » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:43 pm

goglen
Ensign

Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:59 pm

runsforcelery wrote:denounce the accords which made her marriage to a Uromathian prince the price for putting the crown of a united Sharona upon his own head. But duty — that cruel, uncaring goddess of ice and steel which had demanded so much of his ancestors over the millennia — demanded this of him . . . and of her.

He had an entire world to protect, and protecting it meant he couldn’t protect her.

Gods, he couldn’t protect his baby girl . . . .

“Did you bring the list?” she asked softly.

He held it out. It was short. Brutally so. The Emperor of Uromathia had only five unmarried sons. Among them was the crown prince, who was obviously his father’s first choice. She scanned it briefly, then handed it back.

“It isn’t complete, Papa. Please have it amended.”


Sounds like what I've suspected - there is another Uromathian prince. Not Chava's, that province with the friendly prince whose father speaks no English (whatever they speak). Andrin likes him, and he'll qualify based on the simple wording of the accord.

I suspect more surprises - internal combustion engines are being experimented with. Which would you rather have - even a WW2 spitfire w/ machine guns, or a dragon with a limited range fire that does not track well in aerial combat?

Also, there were references to incandescent bulbs - electricity quickly sprouted the telegraph, then telephone. Aside from those techs, they seem advanced, so not sure why those took so long to emerge - thousands of years of semi-modern civilization (not sure how far back their steam age started, but sounds very advanced for that tech). How long to get wireless? Then they won't be so dependent on Voices.

AT&T: Arcanian Telephone & Telegraph.
(slogan: Reach out and kill a dragon?)

I suspect the whales & dolphins will play some role, since they seem emotionally interested.

One more supposition: each side's "power" (mental vs mental) fades as they get farther from home. Not sure if it is time or distance, but note the references to the grayphons becoming more unstable. I expect dragons to start crashing :)
Top
Re: Sort of snippet
Post by goglen   » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:52 pm

goglen
Ensign

Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:59 pm

goglen wrote:AT&T: Arcanian Telephone & Telegraph.
(slogan: Reach out and kill a dragon?)


Gah! Got them confused Arcana is magic - the Sharonians are the ones developing tech.

ST&T... not the same ring.
Top
Re: Sort of snippet
Post by brnicholas   » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:07 pm

brnicholas
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:40 pm

In law you may be right but politically I think it is impossible. The whole negotiation over amending the treaty assumed that Janaki would marry on of Chava's family. If Andrin doesn't marry one of Chava's family he will denounce her for violating the treaty and his army and his people will believe him. Given the Arcanan threat that is unacceptable.

I think there is another solution.

The Snippit mentions five un-married sons, and we know there must be daughters too given the references to a princess for Janaki so I think there are married sons. Where there are married sons there are surely grandsons. They would be crown princes. They are probably minors but they are crown princes and the treaty doesn't say the marriage has to consummated in three months, it only says they have to marry within three months. If she marries a 12 year old then she and her father have at least 4 years to civilize him before she has to sleep with him.

Nicholas

goglen wrote:
Sounds like what I've suspected - there is another Uromathian prince. Not Chava's, that province with the friendly prince whose father speaks no English (whatever they speak). Andrin likes him, and he'll qualify based on the simple wording of the accord.

Top
Re: Sort of snippet
Post by rmsgrey   » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:35 pm

rmsgrey
Commander

Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:09 am
Location: Tyneside, UK

brnicholas wrote:In law you may be right but politically I think it is impossible. The whole negotiation over amending the treaty assumed that Janaki would marry on of Chava's family. If Andrin doesn't marry one of Chava's family he will denounce her for violating the treaty and his army and his people will believe him. Given the Arcanan threat that is unacceptable.


The political situation is not as one-sided as you imply - yes, the negotiation assumed that Janaki would marry one of Chava's family, but, unless Chava is willing to marry a daughter/grand-daughter to a corpse, that is never going to happen. If Andrin or her father can stand up and say that they are meeting their treaty obligations while Chava is openly refusing, then the political situation swings rather more in their favour.

Also, and possibly more importantly, marrying a different Uromathian Prince will split Chava's power base. If Chava is willing to force the issue, without a convenient legalistic fiction to cover his attempt to seize control of all Sharona, then he's going to face the same problems he did before the encounter with Arcana, but with the rest of Sharona more prepared to settle things quickly and permanently...
Top
Re: Sort of snippet
Post by brnicholas   » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:28 pm

brnicholas
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:40 pm

Chava's power base appears to me to be limited to the Empire of Uromathia and those neighboring states who are so vulnerable to threats from his Empire that they do his bidding despite hating him.

The Empire of Uromathia is too big for the rest of Sharona to take it out quickly and cleanly. Think the rest of our world invading the People's Republic of China. Sure it could be done but it would be long, ugly, and expensive.

This means Chava can't be given grounds that his people will accept for renouncing the treaty, no one else's opinion of the situtation matters. My judgement is that his people and his army will agree that the treaty was broken if Andrin doesn't marry one of his family. That means either a long nasty war on Sharona, or fighting Arcana without the support of Sharona's second most powerful state. Either answer will be unacceptable to Andrin and her father.

Nicholas
Top
Re: Sort of snippet
Post by rmsgrey   » Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:25 pm

rmsgrey
Commander

Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:09 am
Location: Tyneside, UK

brnicholas wrote:Chava's power base appears to me to be limited to the Empire of Uromathia and those neighboring states who are so vulnerable to threats from his Empire that they do his bidding despite hating him.


But any "Uromathian prince" must come from within Chava's power base, and must have enough prominence to be a prince, so will have his own supporters (or at least people who see an opportunity to profit from his rise in power). It may or may not be enough to topple Chava, but it will harm his power base in a way that simply refusing to marry wouldn't.

If Uromathia truly is a monolithic power bloc under Chava's control, then, yes, he can use it to hold Sharona hostage, but he still has to worry about international opinion - otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with the treaty negotiations in the first place - he'd just have dictated terms to the world. If Uromathia has internal structure and politics and factions, even if Chava is currently dominant, the right person becoming father of the imperial heirs would be a major shift in the balance of power...
Top
Re: Sort of snippet
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:04 am

Howard T. Map-addict
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1392
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

IMO, best chance against Chava is an internal rebellion,
as rmsgrey says in the intervening post.
The Voice Network could publisize a rebellion,
and guide assistance to it.

Most Sharonans will **hate** any attack by Chava and
his allies against the Calirath Royal Family.
Chava can no more realize that, than the Mythalans can
comprehend how much Ransurans despise them.

Question: just how far will these parallel situations
be taken?

HTM

brnicholas wrote:[snip - htm]
The Empire of Uromathia is too big for the rest of Sharona to take it out quickly and cleanly. Think the rest of our world invading the People's Republic of China. Sure it could be done but it would be long, ugly, and expensive.

This means Chava can't be given grounds that his people will accept for renouncing the treaty, no one else's opinion of the situtation matters. My judgement is that his people and his army will agree that the treaty was broken if Andrin doesn't marry one of his family. That means either a long nasty war on Sharona, or fighting Arcana without the support of Sharona's second most powerful state. Either answer will be unacceptable to Andrin and her father.

Nicholas
Top

Return to Multiverse