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Thoughts about upcoming events in the Multiverse....

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Thoughts about upcoming events in the Multiverse....
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Mon May 04, 2015 9:06 am

Mil-tech bard
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RFC pretty much laid out my answer.

In short, you don't know the Calirath Talent as well as you think you do.

It would have been very easy for the Calirath Emperors to have set up a god-cult around themselves as most aristocracies have through out history have.

They didn't.

And they had a lot more reason to do so.

That continuing action, and the withdrawal Ternathian Empire, stem from the same set of Calirath Emperor calculations of "political economy".

It is far easier to wield real power when it is willingly and lovingly given to you than when it is taken.

The gradual withdrawal of the Ternathian Empire then meant they were going to get it all later, willingly.

In short, preconitives play the political long game better than anyone else.



brnicholas wrote:I hadn't thought through the effects as carefully as you do here. I think the general outline of your thesis is correct but the statement that its effects "cannot be overestimated" is in error.

If the "trickle down effect in terms of "mandate of heaven"" was as powerful as you surmise then the shrinking of the Ternathian Empire is impossible to explain, as is the clear fact that Ternathian's and other Sharonians have significantly different views of the Caliraths.

In summary the Calirath Talent clearly increases the quality of Calirath rule and the of the Caliraths themselves for the reasons you describe. In addition voices increase awareness of this quality among the general population (although only people with a little talent can hear voice transmissions). Still this hasn't produced the level of unity you seem to be postulating here.

Thanks for an extremely thought provoking post.

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:The "Cultural Mary Sue" here is the "Calirath Talent" and the incentives its brutal self-honesty provides for Sharonan rulers.

The Calirath Emperors are operating on a level of hard reality that will make non-talented politicians run away in terror.

The trickle down effect in terms of "mandate of heaven" with everyone on Sharona and Sharonan's spun off universes cannot be overestimated.

Quite literally voices send real images, emotions and all sorts of sub-channel communications about the Calirath Emperors direct to other voices or those with projective talents to send to non-talents.

Sharonans get to know their leaders in ways we cannot imagine, and create loyalties so deep that average Sharonan soldiers will fight at the word of a Calirath Emperor the way that the Imperial Japanese serviceman did in WW2...and the Calirath talent means Emperors only ask it of their troops when absolutely necessary.

This sort of thing will move talented Sharonan leaders much as it does Sharonan troops.

Which, once you work through the full cultural implications of the "Calirath Talent", Chava of Uromathia being a non-talent is central to the storyline.

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Re: Thoughts about upcoming events in the Multiverse....
Post by PeterZ   » Mon May 04, 2015 9:36 am

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Mil-tech bard wrote:RFC pretty much laid out my answer.

In short, you don't know the Calirath Talent as well as you think you do.

It would have been very easy for the Calirath Emperors to have set up a god-cult around themselves as most aristocracies have through out history have.

They didn't.

And they had a lot more reason to do so.

That continuing action, and the withdrawal Ternathian Empire, stem from the same set of Calirath Emperor calculations of "political economy".

It is far easier to wield real power when it is willingly and lovingly given to you than when it is taken.

The gradual withdrawal of the Ternathian Empire then meant they were going to get it all later, willingly.

In short, preconitives play the political long game better than anyone else.


Is political power the end goal for the Caliraths or simply a means to whatever end they seek? I am not sure political power is the goal.

Your analysis of the interpersonal dynamics of the talents seems right on to me, Mil-tech bard. Let's take that one step further. Not only do Voices share a much deeper appreciation of their rulers with the populace, the talents force the rulers to appreciate their subjects on a much deeper level. The Caliraths then are motivated by that appreciation.

How can they not be? Any action of theirs has both immediate consequences that their talent's sensitivity to others make them aware of as well as longer term consequences their precog abilities reveal. Given how the Emperor was blindsided by the vote to make him the Emperor of Sharona, political power is not the principal driver of the Caliraths. I truly think the ability to share points of view inherent in the talents emphasizes the sense of being responsible for and to one another in Sharonans. That goes for the Emperor as well as his subjects.
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Re: Thoughts about upcoming events in the Multiverse....
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Mon May 04, 2015 11:02 am

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Peter Z.

Fear of failure is a much stronger motivation for humans than the desire for success, and the Calirath talent hammers it's human hosts with that "price of failure" every damned day.

Whatever their motivations and final goals, the Calirath emperors are walking the paths of power.

Seeking power to make the world a better place -- for fear of the price of failure that Calirath Glimpses provide if you do not -- is still seeking power.

RFC hit on a real enthralling realistically human story line about the implications of such a talent.


PeterZ wrote:
Mil-tech bard wrote:RFC pretty much laid out my answer.

In short, you don't know the Calirath Talent as well as you think you do.

It would have been very easy for the Calirath Emperors to have set up a god-cult around themselves as most aristocracies have through out history have.

They didn't.

And they had a lot more reason to do so.

That continuing action, and the withdrawal Ternathian Empire, stem from the same set of Calirath Emperor calculations of "political economy".

It is far easier to wield real power when it is willingly and lovingly given to you than when it is taken.

The gradual withdrawal of the Ternathian Empire then meant they were going to get it all later, willingly.

In short, preconitives play the political long game better than anyone else.


Is political power the end goal for the Caliraths or simply a means to whatever end they seek? I am not sure political power is the goal.

Your analysis of the interpersonal dynamics of the talents seems right on to me, Mil-tech bard. Let's take that one step further. Not only do Voices share a much deeper appreciation of their rulers with the populace, the talents force the rulers to appreciate their subjects on a much deeper level. The Caliraths then are motivated by that appreciation.

How can they not be? Any action of theirs has both immediate consequences that their talent's sensitivity to others make them aware of as well as longer term consequences their precog abilities reveal. Given how the Emperor was blindsided by the vote to make him the Emperor of Sharona, political power is not the principal driver of the Caliraths. I truly think the ability to share points of view inherent in the talents emphasizes the sense of being responsible for and to one another in Sharonans. That goes for the Emperor as well as his subjects.
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Re: Thoughts about upcoming events in the Multiverse....
Post by PeterZ   » Mon May 04, 2015 11:22 am

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Mil-tech bard wrote:Peter Z.

Fear of failure is a much stronger motivation for humans than the desire for success, and the Calirath talent hammers it's human hosts with that "price of failure" every damned day.

Whatever their motivations and final goals, the Calirath emperors are walking the paths of power.

Seeking power to make the world a better place -- for fear of the price of failure that Calirath Glimpses provide if you do not -- is still seeking power.

RFC hit on a real enthralling realistically human story line about the implications of such a talent.


Absolutely agree. My point was that this dynamic is a concrete mechanism to obtain the consent of the governed. Contrast that with Chava's approach and disregard to those he rules and the internal tensions become very interesting indeed.

Let's further compare the responsibility attendant with power as it relates to governance. You have Sharona where the talents tend to provide a concrete mechanism to connect the powerful and the results of their actions in a personal and profound way. Arcana does not have that directly. Power accrues to select individuals and does not automatically reflect the impact of its use on others to the wielder. On the contrary, only the threat of destruction has brought the competing powers on Arcana to cooperate.

The dynamics are truly interesting and promise to be worthy of discussion on so many levels.
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Re: Thoughts about upcoming events in the Multiverse....
Post by McGuiness   » Mon May 04, 2015 5:27 pm

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Brom O'Berin wrote:That is a very real possibility, that the authors may alter the initial outline for the series. We know it happened in the HH-verse in a major way with the early introduction of the conflict with MA/RF, but that was driven by MWW deciding to give EF an arena in the HH-verse in which to play.

Outside that, based on what he has stated at cons regarding his different series over the years (back as far as 1990's), the final books are remarkably congruent with his verbal outlines.

FWIW, I have noted some changes, but they have tended to be minor, in that they have not altered the series storyline.
So, I would say that his "record" is more of keeping to his plotted series outlines. The changes that you are postulating are possible, but if incurred, would be a significant modification of his planned HG storyline.
Well, there are a few instances in which RFC has drastically altered how his series have been structured, and key events within them.

Honor Harrington was slotted to die during the Battle of Manticore, just as Admiral Nelson, upon who Honor was based, died at Trafalgar, but fan backlash when the word got out (among other issues) caused RFC to reconsider. He'd intended to have the series jump ahead a generation and continue with her son, but Eric Flint wrote the Torch books which forced the timeline to be accelerated, and that made Honor a bit less... expendable.

By that time she'd grow much larger than life and was the soul of the Manticoran Navy. Toss in her role as a steadholder on Grayson, which made it possible to serve as the major go-between of the two allies, even when they weren't officially talking to each other, along with the looming war with the Solarian league, and her continued existence became necessary. Besides, what fun is a series once it's heroine is killed off?

Safehold was originally going to jump by a generation per book, but RFC liked the characters so much that he vastly accelerated the timeline, so that each book covers roughly one year on Safehold, and the rate of technical innovation is frenetic to say the least!

I'm sure all his series have had alterations from his original outlines and story arcs, but some changes have been more substantial than others.

Still, I expect the Multiverse will probably follow the story outline more closely than most of his series, since another author is involved and has been from the beginning. That tends to limit the freedom RFC has to make sweeping changes, since those would affect Joelle as well. Plus we already know that RTH is finished and the outline of book 4 (which as far as I know wraps up the series but correct me if I'm wrong) is settled and Joelle may be writing his part already.

RFC said he'd hoped to have book 4 finished when RTH was published, although he was a couple of months late in editing the final manuscript, which now appears to be finished with a February 2016 publishing date according to Joelle. That seems early, since HG will be published in paperback in July, but HHNF isn't on Baen's publication schedule in paperback through January 2016. Since both were going to be re-issued as trade paperbacks before the final two books are published, I don't think we'll see RTH in February 2016. We may see HHNF then, but I'd expect RTH in the July time frame, with book 4 possibly six months to a year later.

Of course I'm hoping that this guess about RFC's books is wrong! :lol:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Thoughts about upcoming events in the Multiverse....
Post by brnicholas   » Sun May 17, 2015 11:36 am

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I certainly don't know the Calirath Talent as well as RFC does. However, my objection was not based on the nature of the Calirath talent but based on human nature in general.

I understand you to be saying that as a result of the existence of voices and the virtue of the Calirath's there is going to be a significant portion of the population, concentrated among the Voices and the elites (who have the most contact with both the Calirath's and the Voices) who believe the Caliraths are Divine Right Emperors.

The thing about the Caliraths as Divine Right Emperors is that if you believe in them any other government is blasphemous usurpation of their God given authority. Those are fighting words for believers. If a significant minority of the population believed that any effort to install a different government, even one with Calirath support, ought to have triggered either mass migration or civil war. That neither happened proves to me that there cannot be a widespread belief that the Caliraths have a Mandate of Heaven.

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:RFC pretty much laid out my answer.

In short, you don't know the Calirath Talent as well as you think you do.

It would have been very easy for the Calirath Emperors to have set up a god-cult around themselves as most aristocracies have through out history have.

They didn't.

And they had a lot more reason to do so.

That continuing action, and the withdrawal Ternathian Empire, stem from the same set of Calirath Emperor calculations of "political economy".

It is far easier to wield real power when it is willingly and lovingly given to you than when it is taken.

The gradual withdrawal of the Ternathian Empire then meant they were going to get it all later, willingly.

In short, preconitives play the political long game better than anyone else.



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Re: Thoughts about upcoming events in the Multiverse....
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Mon May 18, 2015 9:21 am

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Ahem...

Said up string WRT Calirath imperial line motivation --

Fear of failure is a much stronger motivation for humans than the desire for success...



Calirath talents see the cost of failure in their dreams at night and often in most of their waking moments.

Avoiding the consequence's for those dreamed failures is the driving force of their personalities, their families, their institutions and their very lives.

That is very much the reason they _avoided_ making themselves "Divine Right Emperors".

It is also the reason for the Calirath talents gradual withdrawal their expanded empire.

They are playing the long game, letting more immature human cultures learn the price of not having Calirath talent politicians/elites in charge, so that when a later crisis comes, they will be given power voluntarily.

Precognitives play politics for the long game.

They can't help it. It is their identity.


brnicholas wrote:I certainly don't know the Calirath Talent as well as RFC does. However, my objection was not based on the nature of the Calirath talent but based on human nature in general.

I understand you to be saying that as a result of the existence of voices and the virtue of the Calirath's there is going to be a significant portion of the population, concentrated among the Voices and the elites (who have the most contact with both the Calirath's and the Voices) who believe the Caliraths are Divine Right Emperors.

The thing about the Caliraths as Divine Right Emperors is that if you believe in them any other government is blasphemous usurpation of their God given authority. Those are fighting words for believers. If a significant minority of the population believed that any effort to install a different government, even one with Calirath support, ought to have triggered either mass migration or civil war. That neither happened proves to me that there cannot be a widespread belief that the Caliraths have a Mandate of Heaven.

Nicholas

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Re: Thoughts about upcoming events in the Multiverse....
Post by brnicholas   » Wed May 20, 2015 8:34 am

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Thank you, that makes much more sense to me then my original misunderstanding of you.

I don't recall any evidence the Calirath talent extends to centuries in advance, which would be required to make seeing the consequences of letting others "learn the price of not having Calirath talent politicians/elites in charge" acceptable, but we know the Caliraths have secrets, that could be one of them.

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:Ahem...

Said up string WRT Calirath imperial line motivation --

Fear of failure is a much stronger motivation for humans than the desire for success...



Calirath talents see the cost of failure in their dreams at night and often in most of their waking moments.

Avoiding the consequence's for those dreamed failures is the driving force of their personalities, their families, their institutions and their very lives.

That is very much the reason they _avoided_ making themselves "Divine Right Emperors".

It is also the reason for the Calirath talents gradual withdrawal their expanded empire.

They are playing the long game, letting more immature human cultures learn the price of not having Calirath talent politicians/elites in charge, so that when a later crisis comes, they will be given power voluntarily.

Precognitives play politics for the long game.

They can't help it. It is their identity.


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