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Dahak vs Death Star

Fans of Colin Maclntyre and the great starship Dahak should take a minute to stop in here for discussions about one of David's best-loved series.
Re: Dahak vs Death Star
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:27 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:That ignores the fact that SW hyperspace drives are 100% capable of "microjumping".
Just because it wasn´t normal procedure doesn´t mean it can´t be used.

There´s also a few nasty tricks that you can do by using their drives, that Dahak cannot do, and more importantly, might not have a clue how to defend against.

Like doing a hyperspace jump right to the point where Dahak´s own field of gravity forces the SW vessel out of hyperspace, at which point it would be at a really nice place to fire instantly.


This is assuming that Dahak stays on a predictable course--something I would not expect. Zigging around would make targeting hyper missiles much harder, I would expect zigging to be a normal part of combat that simply isn't worthy of mention. (We see the same thing in the Honorverse--zigging isn't mentioned except the one time idiots are running a ship and don't zig, thus allowing hits by ballistic missiles.)

In case you missed what i wrote earlier, recap:
The techs used by Dahak DOES exist in the SW universe, as far as i know, ALL OF THEM.
But just about noone uses them because they´re mostly useless. There, they´re looked at the same as the weapon that will not be named is in the Honorverse, pink elephants, big, theoretically impressive but not actually useful.


Huh? SW has nothing like Dahak's real-space drive. Missile combat isn't very useful in the SW universe because the missiles would be too slow. That says nothing about the effect of Dahak's weapons.

Essentially, the SW shielding is such that Dahak wont be able to finesse a victory, while the Death Star will have no end of problems trying to hit Dahak with anything useful.


Sorry but nope. SW ships has more than one kind of shield. Particle shielding kills antimatter weaponry VERY effectively. It is in fact canon that they are so effective that antimatter is no longer used for warheads(except under special circumstances). Throwing antimatter missiles at the DS isn´t just useless, it´s just a budget deficit for the shooter. They´re not just ineffective, they´re completely ineffective, wont even scratch the paint.


Energy most certainly gets through when it hits the DS--we see targets being taken out. Lets assume they have a particle shield that's 100% effective--so what? What I'm saying is the antimatter missile will detonate when it's destroyed by impact--you have both matter and antimatter released, a particle shield will actually increase the bang slightly as it will reduce the amount that manages to disperse unreacted. If the blasters of a X-wing can damage it then so can a boom that's far more powerful.

One other possibility occurs to me that we don't have enough data to decide on: What if Dahak launches one of his fighter parasites on remote control, a kamikaze mission? We already know they can get through the DS shields, does the DS get C-fraced?
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Re: Dahak vs Death Star
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:32 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:And he could do the same to snubfighters, because he was picking off Imperial fighters during the Siege of Anu's Base, from orbit, and killed all of them before they could send a transmission.


Remember, though, that wasn't in combat. He had targets dashing along, fat, dumb and happy.

While he could pick off fighters in combat it wouldn't be with that kind of ease.
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Re: Dahak vs Death Star
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:37 pm

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DDHvi wrote:IIRC in "The Apocalypse Troll" (I think the right title) the pilot had a pistol sized hyper weapon that killed the troll with a very fast shot which went around the troll's shields.


And remember she was listening to her instructor's voice at the time--planetary screen could not protect against an attack through hyper because they were too close to a planet. Note that such tactics weren't used in the space battles. In hyper the only attack was against the enemy's hyper field, in realspace the attacks were simple brute force.
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Re: Dahak vs Death Star
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:13 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Gravitonics are going to be effective, because they're hyper missiles. And SW ships (and Death Stars) are just so damned slow (even the snubfighters) Dahak could pick them off with missiles that flick into hyper and come back down inside the shields that should be protecting them.


Sorry but nope. That idea already exists in the SW-verse and has been delegated to the big pile of "obsolete". Standard SW shields protect against it, impossible to hyperspace through them.

Somtaaw wrote:Now to be fair, we don't know 100% that Star Wars shields DON'T cover a tiny bit into hyper.


Actually the opposite has already been stated, that hypering through shields is NOT possible.

Somtaaw wrote: If they're close enough to use sublight, they're using atomic-shattering energy weapons


Which ends up mostly dissipating against the SW particleshielding.

Somtaaw wrote:Yes, I do consider that a draw, because Suncrusher (solo) cannot inflict enough damage on Dahak


Inflict damage is easy. Hitting might not be.

Somtaaw wrote:A bit incorrect actually. Look how Kyp Durron actually used them, he only ever fired them into planets, because it does something that messes with the solar fission, and induces supernova....


I haven´t read the story at all, but i HAVE read the techspecs and explanations for it.

Sorry no, not incorrect. Just because he doesn´t feel ships is worthy enough for his limited supply of 11(?) torpedoes, says absolutely nothing about their effect on other things.

Somtaaw wrote:which is more or less what a properly aimed gravitonic missile can induce (the super gravitonic that was the main plot of the third plot).


Except resonance torpedoes are NOT stated to be gravitonic warheads but something much MUCH nastier.

Upon detonation, all matter in contact with the warhead is dissolved and becomes fuel for the nuclear fission AND fusion reaction initiated.

So no, definitely not gravitonic. And it´s stated (somewhere at least) that anything smaller than a star is automatic instakill.

Upon detonation, a resonance torpedo dissolved metals and expanded into a massive explosion. The explosion then destabilized the fusion reactions of a star, causing it to supernova. This massive explosion would cause any nearby stars or objects of matter to explode as well, causing a chain reaction powerful enough to destroy a whole star system.

Somtaaw wrote:And the gravitonics can also be fired elsewhere, while the Suncrusher's resonance torpedoes seemingly cannot. I don't recall if it's mentioned in the books themselves, but from every fight, it never once fired a resonance torpedo anywhere except into a Sun. Not once.


Again, if you have 11 weapons with no refills EVER again, are you going to use them against individual targets or against whole star systems?

I´m using official tech statements for them, not the fiction they´re taken from.

Somtaaw wrote:Which I allowed for, it's possible that due to the metals used in producing Dahak, in combination with his kilometers of armor (also of a generally higher grade than that found on ISD's, Mon Cal cruisers, or the Death Star itself), while a planet has none of the above. And planetoids are remarkably durable, with their internal blastdoors sealing kilometer deep holes. There's more chance of an Imperium planetoid surviving a direct blast from the DS, and a planet has 0% chance. Even if it's only one percent, one percent being higher than zero percent, planetoid has higher potential survivability against the superlaser.


No, just NO.

Seriously man, the DS superlaser doesn´t care even the slightest about normal armour, normal armour is 100% useless against it. The superlaser pumps in enough energy for it to make a PLANET that is at least 10 times the MASS of a Dahak to completely explode from energy overload, a cause of damage that any kind of normal armour propagates rather than blocks.

That´s why i said that armour made specially to protect against the DS superlaser MIGHT help, but nothing else.

You need a combination of extremely spaced out, NON-energy conductive materials and INSANE depth to even have a real chance.
Instead of many many km of armour, you would probably need to have half the radius of a Dahak with nothing but armour, compression/damage zones and insulation zones before you might have a tiny little chance of surival for it.

And even then, i don´t give it more than a "icecube in hell" level of chance.

A superlaser that can deliver that much energy in such a short time, the end results from having 10km or 200km of armour isn´t even going to be noticeable without laboratory examination.

Please, do remember that metal conducts energy much better than soil, magma or mountains.

Somtaaw wrote:Must differ here, as I said above. The Resonance torpedo was exclusively targeted on suns, and actually only on stars of a certain size to trigger a proper supernova.

Resonance Torpedo no where on the weapon page itself, or in the books, ever suggested it could be fired against planetary targets. After being fired, it's literally nothing more than superheated plasma


Do read better. Absolutely nowhere does it say that the weapon has anything to do with plasma.
The only thing said is that when fired, each torpedoe RESEMBLED an oval of superheated plasma. Which says nothing of what it is.

And you might want to note that my above quote is from the page you link. There are better/more complete sources, but not online.

And if you had actually bothered to READ the link you provide yourself, you might have noted that it was ALSO fired at a NEBULA to allow causing MULTIPLE stars to supernova.

But that doesn´t really matter as in the tech stuff on them, it is stated that they ARE instakill against anything they hit. They´re just not superspeed or super accuracy weapons because their PRIMARY job is to hit big and essentially nonmoving objects.
That´s NOT the same as not being able to be used directly against smaller targets.

Somtaaw wrote:If the books hold, then it did have standard starfighter level shields. Call it slightly more powerful than an X-wing's shields, perhaps somewhere closer to those of the later TIE Defender's or K-wings, both of which were larger than most other fighters, although still smaller than the Suncrusher. With all the ships that were firing at it, during the Maw Installation escape, it's shields dropped fairly quickly, and it's minor turrets were quickly destroyed. But the idiot-proof armor allowed it to keep flying, and ram right through the (unarmored) ISD bridge.


In that case, then any of Dahaks "usual" weaponry is pretty much only useful as long as it can keep those shields to exactly zero.
Which is ridiculously hard when you can´t actually drop the shields with the same weapons that might be able to get past the superarmour.


Like i said before, the Sun Crusher is a hideously overpowered piece of author fiat plot device. And unlike most "normal" stuff form the SW-verse, it has absolutely no good or even remotely realistic reasoning behind its tech.

Somtaaw wrote:Gravitonics are going to be effective, because they're hyper missiles.


Which SW shields stop dead yes, so NO.
And it should perhaps be mentioned again that the SW-verse DOES have gravitonic warheads and weaponry, it just isn´t used except by "primitives" or those who can´t get anything "decent".
Because it doesn´t work against average or normal opponents.

Somtaaw wrote:SW ships don't defend at all against anything from hyper


That´s because their shields already do it so they don´t need to.

Somtaaw wrote:and a gravitonic being what amounts to a micro-blackhole


That´s overly simplified. A micro-blackhole wouldn´t even be dangerous. Or a BLACK hole for that matter.

Somtaaw wrote:would crumple just about any ship smaller than capital ships with just one missile.


Ah no. That´s Hollywood physics striking again. And RFC also doesn´t have his gravitonic weapons work that unrealistically.

Somtaaw wrote:And he could do the same to snubfighters, because he was picking off Imperial fighters during the Siege of Anu's Base, from orbit, and killed all of them before they could send a transmission.


A Dahak planetoid could do it against unshielded TIE-fighters yes, anything with shields, sorry but not a chance.



That´s the thing, SW-verse ships doesn´t need to defend against missiles, hypermissiles, antimatter, particle-disintegrators and a lot of other various stuff, because their combination of shields(mainly particle shields and deflector shields) do that perfectly fine.

Some rare fighters doesn´t have particle shields, like the TIE Defender, and would be vulnerable to antimatter and some other weapon types, but mostly, SW-verse weaponry is about delivering craploads of raw firepower, enough to hopefully penetrate the shielding and start hurting the ship, or at least indirectly hurt the shield generators to eventually kill the shielding completely.

But this is where it turns ugly for the Dahaks, all their weapons are mostly neutralised by those shields, and the heavyhitters pretty much completely, which means Dahak´s can hit a DS super easily, but doing damage is going to take a LOOOONG time.
While a DS is going to have one hell of a time scoring hits on a Dahak, but IF it hits, the stupidly high raw firepower is going to hurt it badly pretty damn quick.

And of course, if a Dahak is ever foolish enough to let a DS get a hit with supergun, it´s game over, bye-bye.

Like i said, the two are really REALLY dreadful opponents to put in a fight, utterly unsuitable to fight each other.

The Dahak would probably be better off using LESS advanced weapons to tear through DS shields with, while a DS needs to use all the tricks possible to score damage on a Dahak.
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Re: Dahak vs Death Star
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:35 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:This is assuming that Dahak stays on a predictable course


Actually no. It assumes that any prolonged "fighting"(or rather trying to outmaneuver each other) will eventually have both sides going to the "same" place. Ie, outpredicting each other, most of the times, it´s not going to work, but sometimes it will, it´s a matter of being able to take advantage of the chance that provides.

Loren Pechtel wrote:Huh? SW has nothing like Dahak's real-space drive.


Sorry, WEAPON techs was what i was referring to!!! My bad!

Loren Pechtel wrote:Energy most certainly gets through when it hits the DS--we see targets being taken out.


By fighters supposedly going in "under the shields", and just how that is supposed to work outside of movie drama has never been explained.

Loren Pechtel wrote:Lets assume they have a particle shield that's 100% effective--so what? What I'm saying is the antimatter missile will detonate when it's destroyed by impact--you have both matter and antimatter released, a particle shield will actually increase the bang slightly as it will reduce the amount that manages to disperse unreacted. If the blasters of a X-wing can damage it then so can a boom that's far more powerful.


No, you misunderstand. It´s not shields using particles, it´s shields protecting AGAINST particles.
It´s very poorly described on a techbasis, but essentially, it repels particles so they are unable to impact with what the shield protects.

Antimatter warheads would basically just be dispersed without any explosion at all.

There´s some uncertainty if you could make it work with antimatter/matter warheads(ie bringing both of their fuels with them completely), but probably, to function as they should, they probably have to be detonated at standoff range, or the result would mostly be what you might call a glancing hit, with something like >99% of the energy acting like a directed(shaped charge) warhead AWAY from the shielded craft.

That´s the real bummer here, beause a Dahak might figure out that the antimatter needs reaction fuel matter along with the antimatter to work, may even be able to fix that in a fight, but even then, antimatter warheads will be incredibly ineffective.
At standoff range, it should be possible to raise effectiveness slightly, but still probably not even 1%, and the explosion will then be absorbed by the deflector shield instead.

Loren Pechtel wrote:One other possibility occurs to me that we don't have enough data to decide on: What if Dahak launches one of his fighter parasites on remote control, a kamikaze mission? We already know they can get through the DS shields, does the DS get C-fraced?


Again, we know they can get through by movie drama author fiat, if we go just by techspecs, it should be nearly impossible.

So, call it a tossup, who knows. Still, Dahak´s parasites MAY be his best weapons against a DS.
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Re: Dahak vs Death Star
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:21 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Gravitonics are going to be effective, because they're hyper missiles. And SW ships (and Death Stars) are just so damned slow (even the snubfighters) Dahak could pick them off with missiles that flick into hyper and come back down inside the shields that should be protecting them.


Sorry but nope. That idea already exists in the SW-verse and has been delegated to the big pile of "obsolete". Standard SW shields protect against it, impossible to hyperspace through them.


Sorry, but nope, right back at you.


Provide proof that according to Star Wars lore, hyper weapons were experimented with and discarded as "obsolete", and yet in every single battle both movies and every EU book in existance.... missiles that are barely faster than fighter are not only never shot down by anti-missile, but are non-hyper in nature.

You are giving FAR too much credit to their shields, strictly from movies. Period.
Last edited by Somtaaw on Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dahak vs Death Star
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:57 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Now to be fair, we don't know 100% that Star Wars shields DON'T cover a tiny bit into hyper.


Actually the opposite has already been stated, that hypering through shields is NOT possible.


Actually, going to respond to this. According to your own statement, every single thing Dahak can do.... has not only been invented in SW, but they've discarded literally everything.


Facts that prove you wrong:
1) Planetoids are larger than the Death Star, Death Star takes somewhere between an hour and several (unlisted) hours to orbit a single gas giant. Your average Empire or Imperium planetoid is going to sling around that same gas giant in a matter of minutes.

2)
Actually the opposite has already been stated, that hypering through shields is NOT possible.


The Achuultani called in from the Siege of Earth, and wanted to tell you that they do it.

The Imperium also called in using their time machine, and pointed out they do it too, evidence being they wasted their own planets and Colin + company used the same thing against the Achuultani during their Zeta Triangulis campaign.


3) In the Star Wars universe, outside of using mass shadow equipped ships, anything in hyper stays in hyper because that's how they work. This is similar in nature to using Enchanaach drive to lockout hyper ships, but only because in SW hyper can only be down where there isn't gravity inducing things.

They also do not have any form of hyper-mines, such as the Imperium, nor most other forms of 'hyper' related weapons. Once in hyper, ships are more or less untouchable, and have exactly ZERO offensive capability. And short of forcing the ship by the above mentioned mass shadow ships, you are incapable of engaging (or detecting) ships that are in hyper, from normal space.

Yet in the Dahak universe, the hyper variant of travel is not only easily detected from upto light-[b]WEEKS[/i] away, but that technology was also developed into their hyper grenades, and later by the Imperium into hyper rifles, a man-portable weapon. Meanwhile in SW.... the best energy weapons are arguably Mandalorian created weapons that are generally higher output for similar size (no known drawbacks, but one could assume shorter lifetimes, since in SW their blasters seem to have unlimited lifetimes)

Tenshinai wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Gravitonics are going to be effective, because they're hyper missiles.


Which SW shields stop dead yes, so NO.
And it should perhaps be mentioned again that the SW-verse DOES have gravitonic warheads and weaponry, it just isn´t used except by "primitives" or those who can´t get anything "decent".


You have yet to actually provide any proof, so basically we're supposed to take your word on everything.

Tenshinai wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:SW ships don't defend at all against anything from hyper


That´s because their shields already do it so they don´t need to.


Again, your argument basically boils down to "because I said so", without providing any proof, links, or any substantial backup of your word.

Tenshinai wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:and a gravitonic being what amounts to a micro-blackhole


That´s overly simplified. A micro-blackhole wouldn´t even be dangerous. Or a BLACK hole for that matter.

Somtaaw wrote:would crumple just about any ship smaller than capital ships with just one missile.


Ah no. That´s Hollywood physics striking again. And RFC also doesn´t have his gravitonic weapons work that unrealistically.


Do you just not understand what the gravitonic's actually do? or are you intentionally misunderstanding, just to cause trouble?

Tenshinai wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:And he could do the same to snubfighters, because he was picking off Imperial fighters during the Siege of Anu's Base, from orbit, and killed all of them before they could send a transmission.


A Dahak planetoid could do it against unshielded TIE-fighters yes, anything with shields, sorry but not a chance.


Except for the totally minor point, that you ignore at all that Imperial fighters in Dahak are shielded, and have to rely on their shields for max-speed runs. You know, the kind of run they all started doing when Anu started screaming for them to RTB.... and those hyper missiles blew them away despite being shielded. Because they were CAPITAL hyper missiles, not just the hyper missiles coming from 80 megaton parasite cruisers, or the piddly little missiles their own fighters can launch.


Tenshinai wrote:That´s the thing, SW-verse ships doesn´t need to defend against missiles, hypermissiles, antimatter, particle-disintegrators and a lot of other various stuff, because their combination of shields(mainly particle shields and deflector shields) do that perfectly fine.


Which is totally why they have to destroy asteroids in ESB, or why Vader had to clear the belt simply so he could receive transmissions from their holonet right?

Not only did they have to shoot asteroids down to "managable" levels, they were still taking impacts. Meanwhile, planetoids would have just slammed right through the asteroids, because their shields actually work. :roll:



When you can actually provide some proof to back up your arguments, you might be valid... until then, please for the love of whatever deity, cease your arguments of "I said so".


I'm perfectly willing to debate, but arguing with a moron who refuses to provide any form of proof, or logical discussion over thoughts is just bad. And I'm willing to admit when I don't know, I did it over on the Honorverse threads in regards to some things, and admitted defeat on the debate about velocity to missile range extension.... you on the other hand, are not.
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Re: Dahak vs Death Star
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:01 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:And he could do the same to snubfighters, because he was picking off Imperial fighters during the Siege of Anu's Base, from orbit, and killed all of them before they could send a transmission.


Remember, though, that wasn't in combat. He had targets dashing along, fat, dumb and happy.

While he could pick off fighters in combat it wouldn't be with that kind of ease.



Prior to the Siege of Anu's base, when Colin was just about to go up with Tani, there was a brief description over how the Imperial fighters fly; and that because they were flying low, slow, and heavily stealthed they didn't need the grav field, or protective shields. But flying at maximum speeds, they need shields to protect their surfaces more.


So during the Siege of Anu's base, the returning fighters were definitely running not only their full-powered drives, but shields up, weapons hot ready to engage as soon as they got the range.

Dahak was firing capital hyper missiles, sublight parasite cruisers (like the Osiris, or others during the Siege of Earth), have their own smaller hyper missiles, and while I'm not 100% sure the fighters have hyper missiles, if they do they are smaller in turn.
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Re: Dahak vs Death Star
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:10 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Now to be fair, we don't know 100% that Star Wars shields DON'T cover a tiny bit into hyper.


Actually the opposite has already been stated, that hypering through shields is NOT possible.



And just to address this, without your stupidly long wall of text... the only real place, that I'm aware of, that SW has ever experimented shields to hyper... is in relation to PLANETARY shields.


Which is why, during the many attacks on Coruscant, both in the Clone Wars (Grievous grabbing Palpatine), and the shields went up over him... he couldn't hyper back out. In actuality, planetary shields are pretty much totally impregnable. A good example, is on Hoth. Vader has a whole fleet, and the Empire didn't mess around with small fleets.... but a single planetary shield protecting the Rebel base, and he had no choice but to send ground troops. Otherwise he could have sat in orbit, and just pounded on it with his few hundred ships and forced the Rebel shield generator to burn out.

And from the EU books, Rogue squadron was sent on ahead of the Rebel Alliance fleets, to Coruscant to make sure the shields could NOT be brought up at all. Which then led to the New Republic forming, and using Coruscant as it's capital.

Other notable strikes, the Yuuz Vong or whatever they're called, the return of Ysanne Isard, cloned Emperor, a few other cases, there's been a lot of battles around and over Coruscant. And the big point is always about the planetary shield.


But just because planetary shields are basically a nice, giant "I win" button, doesn't mean that ships have the same shields. And to the best of my knowledge, I will repeat this from my previous post.... NOBODY uses any form of hyper technology. Or even has it researched, in any form. hyper drives move ships, and battle fortress like the DS, but otherwise it is not used in any other way.


Note: and by ships, I am also including various unmanned, autonomous probes that have the capability to travel in hyper, at least in one-way trips.
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Re: Dahak vs Death Star
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:53 am

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Somtaaw wrote:
And just to address this, without your stupidly long wall of text... the only real place, that I'm aware of, that SW has ever experimented shields to hyper... is in relation to PLANETARY shields.


Which is why, during the many attacks on Coruscant, both in the Clone Wars (Grievous grabbing Palpatine), and the shields went up over him... he couldn't hyper back out. In actuality, planetary shields are pretty much totally impregnable. A good example, is on Hoth. Vader has a whole fleet, and the Empire didn't mess around with small fleets.... but a single planetary shield protecting the Rebel base, and he had no choice but to send ground troops. Otherwise he could have sat in orbit, and just pounded on it with his few hundred ships and forced the Rebel shield generator to burn out.

And from the EU books, Rogue squadron was sent on ahead of the Rebel Alliance fleets, to Coruscant to make sure the shields could NOT be brought up at all. Which then led to the New Republic forming, and using Coruscant as it's capital.

Other notable strikes, the Yuuz Vong or whatever they're called, the return of Ysanne Isard, cloned Emperor, a few other cases, there's been a lot of battles around and over Coruscant. And the big point is always about the planetary shield.


But just because planetary shields are basically a nice, giant "I win" button, doesn't mean that ships have the same shields. And to the best of my knowledge, I will repeat this from my previous post.... NOBODY uses any form of hyper technology. Or even has it researched, in any form. hyper drives move ships, and battle fortress like the DS, but otherwise it is not used in any other way.


Note: and by ships, I am also including various unmanned, autonomous probes that have the capability to travel in hyper, at least in one-way trips.
The Force Awakens has a scene that seems to bear on this argument. But if you guys haven't seen it yet I'll avoid saying more.
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