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1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?

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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by 7thsealord   » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:15 am

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Harking back to the starting post for this thread, access to Grantville data by certain people would certainly mean the settlement of Australia takes a very different path.

For a start, European settlement probably a lot earlier than 1788 (the British were, really, latecomers to Australia).

Consider that, in 1633+, the Dutch had a presence in their East Indies (now Indonesia), from where was conducted a lucrative trade in spices and other commodities. The Dutch were, by the time in question, well aware of a large landmass (or group thereof) to the South-East of Java.

The first "official" landing on the Australian mainland was in 1606 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janszoon_voyage_of_1606

Also, Dirk Hartog in 1616 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Hartog

Noteworthy (and especially relevant to this time period) is the wreck of the Batavia in 1629 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavia_%28ship%29

In short, the Dutch already knew there was something there. But the North and NW coasts of Australia were, for 16th century seafarers, Ghodawfully inhospitable places to visit. Plenty of reefs, very few safe anchorages, harsh climate, mostly barren landscape, profoundly weird animals, etc..

Plus a complete lack of knowledge about the land's mineral wealth (including colossal iron ore deposits, and GOLD) plus large areas of arable land that existed there.

So, given a hint or three from a Grantville source, I suspect that the Australian continent would be subjected to a lot more interest than it was historically. The Dutch were already within spitting distance (geographically speaking), and it seems plausible that groups from other European countries would be interested in grabbing a piece of the pie, so to speak.
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by doug941   » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:35 am

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While making an appearance in the Western US would be a noticeable aspiration, establishing a trading/supply colony in the Durban, South Africa area would be a better option. First, it would far closer to the USE. Second, steam warships homeported there could patrol the sealanes leading to Eastern Asia so as to choke out any vessels from "Unfriendly" nations and/or groups (What! You want to take slaves?!?!, elephant ivory?!?!) Third, the Witwatersrand area is, by far, the world's biggest producer of gold ore with large deposits of platinum as well. Fourth, the Kimberley diamond mines are approx 270 miles to the southwest of Witwatersrand. Fifth, South Africa is a world class producer of vanadium, chromium, manganese, iron, coal etc etc etc. Various steel alloys could be produced there, then sold across the globe as needed.
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Tenshinai   » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:29 am

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doug941 wrote:While making an appearance in the Western US would be a noticeable aspiration, establishing a trading/supply colony in the Durban, South Africa area would be a better option. First, it would far closer to the USE.


:shock:

Say what?

Berlin to Durban, straight line distance, ~9200km.

Berlin to Los Angeles California, straight line distance, 9300km.

To New York, about 6400km.

And going to Durban will be everything EXCEPT a straight line. With modern travel, the route is 14000km, expect something more like 17000km.

Exactly how is twice to thrice the overseas distance to New York closer?
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:56 am

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Tenshinai wrote:
doug941 wrote:While making an appearance in the Western US would be a noticeable aspiration, establishing a trading/supply colony in the Durban, South Africa area would be a better option. First, it would far closer to the USE.


:shock:

Say what?

Berlin to Durban, straight line distance, ~9200km.

Berlin to Los Angeles California, straight line distance, 9300km.

To New York, about 6400km.

And going to Durban will be everything EXCEPT a straight line. With modern travel, the route is 14000km, expect something more like 17000km.

Exactly how is twice to thrice the overseas distance to New York closer?


Using the quoted material.

Imagine my shock at learning that New York is in the Western US. :roll:

Huh,
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Tenshinai   » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:15 pm

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thinkstoomuch wrote:
Using the quoted material.

Imagine my shock at learning that New York is in the Western US. :roll:

Huh,
T2M
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As that was not said anywhere in the quoted material perhaps you should learn to read a bit better?
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:24 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:
doug941 wrote:While making an appearance in the Western US would be a noticeable aspiration, establishing a trading/supply colony in the Durban, South Africa area would be a better option. First, it would far closer to the USE.


:shock:

Say what?

Berlin to Durban, straight line distance, ~9200km.

Berlin to Los Angeles California, straight line distance, 9300km.

To New York, about 6400km.

And going to Durban will be everything EXCEPT a straight line. With modern travel, the route is 14000km, expect something more like 17000km.

Exactly how is twice to thrice the overseas distance to New York closer?
Really.



Tenshinai wrote:As that was not said anywhere in the quoted material perhaps you should learn to read a bit better?



I added bold to the key phrase. Quoted again below.

"While making an appearance in the Western US would be a noticeable aspiration, ..."

So again when did the Western US include New York?

So ... If that is the first words in the quote how is it not mentioned.

T2M
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Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by doug941   » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:26 pm

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Remember folks how the thread was talking about the California gold fields, THAT is why I mentioned the Western US. As for distance, if you leave from Hamburg going to Durban, the sea distance is give or take 7,200 nautical miles. Hamburg to San Francisco THRU THE PANAMA CANAL is 8,340 nautical miles. Rounding the Horn will give you a distance of +/- 19,000 miles. And rounding Good Hope is not even worth doing the math unless you plan on doing some Indies trading. As for why South Africa vs the US? Look up the mineral wealth of the Central Republic of South Africa. An average day of digging on the Witwatersrand was better than a great day in the Sierra Nevadas. Diamonds and platinum. Plus everything needed to make various irons and steels is in one place.
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:59 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:Berlin to Los Angeles California, straight line distance, 9300km.


In the Ring Of Fire universe, "Sea Miles" are far more relevant than "straight line" or "Great Circle" miles. In those terms, South Africa is practically "on the way" to Los Angeles or San Francisco.

There are probably a lot of good reasons for establishing a USE outpost in South Africa, especially considering the Colony on Mauritius established in Second Chance Bird.

But Grantville's denizens are unlikely to think of the "historic" South African mineral wealth unless someone mentions diamonds. What American schools put at the top of the list (a very short list, fwiw) is Sutter's Mill and the "forty-niners." Some schools might also have the Yukon Gold Rush on the list, but that's about it for American's knowledge of "historic gold rushes."

Consequently, Grantvillers are almost always going to think of North America when considering where to find needed (or desired) mineral deposits that aren't available in Europe.
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Tenshinai   » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:35 am

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thinkstoomuch wrote:I added bold to the key phrase. Quoted again below.

"While making an appearance in the Western US would be a noticeable aspiration, ..."

So again when did the Western US include New York?

So ... If that is the first words in the quote how is it not mentioned.

T2M

:roll:

I used Berlin to LA as comparison for that. Then ADDED Berlin to NY as a further, separate comparison to provide additional scale.
Only an idiot would automatically assume that the latter by default MUST be PART of the former.

Seriously, you COULD have come up with some sane objections or comments like Doug or Harold, as i just did a simple and quick comparison, but instead you draw extended connections that doesn´t exist?

*sheesh*
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:22 am

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doug941 wrote:Remember folks how the thread was talking about the California gold fields, THAT is why I mentioned the Western US. ... As for why South Africa vs the US? Look up the mineral wealth of the Central Republic of South Africa.


I suspect that the Japanese colony and claim of San Francisco Bay and the Sacramento watershed (and gold fields) is going to make South Africa more attractive to the USE as well. (I don't recall which book included that story line or whether it was an Online Grantville Gazette serial.)

ETA: The Japanese story line is in 1636: Seas of Fortune by Iver P. Cooper; the novella Rising Sun.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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