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1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?

Alternate history buff? Wander on over for a discussion about Eric Flint's 1632 series!
1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by HB of CJ   » Fri May 09, 2014 10:08 pm

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If the world is the same after "The Ring Of Fire", do the "Powers That Be" understand that some areas of the New World may have recoverable mineral wealth just waiting to be exploited?

The Gold Deposits around the up-time Sutters Mill in the future Sacramento California USA area comes to mind. Certainly a long voyage in about 1635, but also quite doable with existing ships.

Enter the Grantsville High School library. Could have enemy agents pilfered enough geology and history books to get a very close idea where such gold fields my in fact be for great success?

Could an expedition by either the good or the bad possibly reach California in 1635 and return and could they recover enough gold to make the trip $worthwhile$? HB of CJ (old coot)

Other world locations will also exist. I choose the Sacramento California USA area because I know of it and it is accessible from the sea. Other geographic locations? There must be many.
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri May 09, 2014 11:18 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:If the world is the same after "The Ring Of Fire", do the "Powers That Be" understand that some areas of the New World may have recoverable mineral wealth just waiting to be exploited?


The two latest novels cover just that scenario.

1636: Commander Cantrell in the West Indies by Charles E Gannon

1636: Seas of Fortune by Iver Cooper
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Hutch   » Mon May 12, 2014 9:52 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
HB of CJ wrote:If the world is the same after "The Ring Of Fire", do the "Powers That Be" understand that some areas of the New World may have recoverable mineral wealth just waiting to be exploited?


The two latest novels cover just that scenario.

1636: Commander Cantrell in the West Indies by Charles E Gannon

1636: Seas of Fortune by Iver Cooper


Exactly so, Harold.

And there have been suggestions in 1633 that Richelieu had manuvered to gain control of North America from the English (albeit I can't believe even Charles I would be that stupid)in order to access it's riches for the greater glory of France (which may never happen, as currently the Cardinal has problems closer to home...)

Both books (so far) show little exploitation of the Indian populations--how long and how successfully that will last is open to speculation.

We shall see (I hope--after all I'm 61 and this series may be generational in scope....)
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon May 12, 2014 10:16 am

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Hutch wrote:We shall see (I hope--after all I'm 61 and this series may be generational in scope....)


I turn 65 in July. <sigh> I don't expect to see an end to the series either. :cry:

However, I was recently re-reading some of the series from the Online Grantville Gazette and came across the short story All That Glitters which sets up about five different gold rushes plus an expedition to establish South Africa's agriculture to support a later search for the Kimberly diamond pipe.

In short, there's oodles of stories about recreating a bunch of gold rushes -- Although I don't recall any expeditions to the Yukon.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Spacekiwi   » Mon May 12, 2014 8:30 pm

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Hey, im 21, and not sure if i'm going to se the end of the series either..... :P

Weird Harold wrote:
Hutch wrote:We shall see (I hope--after all I'm 61 and this series may be generational in scope....)


I turn 65 in July. <sigh> I don't expect to see an end to the series either. :cry:

However, I was recently re-reading some of the series from the Online Grantville Gazette and came across the short story All That Glitters which sets up about five different gold rushes plus an expedition to establish South Africa's agriculture to support a later search for the Kimberly diamond pipe.

In short, there's oodles of stories about recreating a bunch of gold rushes -- Although I don't recall any expeditions to the Yukon.
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by hanuman   » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:22 am

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HB of CJ wrote:If the world is the same after "The Ring Of Fire", do the "Powers That Be" understand that some areas of the New World may have recoverable mineral wealth just waiting to be exploited?

The Gold Deposits around the up-time Sutters Mill in the future Sacramento California USA area comes to mind. Certainly a long voyage in about 1635, but also quite doable with existing ships.

Enter the Grantsville High School library. Could have enemy agents pilfered enough geology and history books to get a very close idea where such gold fields my in fact be for great success?

Could an expedition by either the good or the bad possibly reach California in 1635 and return and could they recover enough gold to make the trip $worthwhile$? HB of CJ (old coot)

Other world locations will also exist. I choose the Sacramento California USA area because I know of it and it is accessible from the sea. Other geographic locations? There must be many.


There are sooooo many possibilities. The most recent book looks at two simultaneous expeditions to the Caribbean, by the USE and the French. For oil.

Then there are resource-rich lands both nearby and further away from Europe, both densely populated and not, and rich with all kinds of resources, not just gold.

The question is this, namely whether the USE with its more progressive social norms and political ideals will be willing to practice the kind of ruthless colonialism that took place in our timeline. I don't expect so, because it will go against what Mr Flint is trying to do with the series, which (on the philosophical level) seems to ask 'what if we had done history differently?'

Another question is this, namely that, given the level of technology currently available in Europe (after Grantville's arrival, I mean) and the expected rate of technological development for the foreseeable future (the next half or full century), what kinds of resources will need to be imported from outside Europe, and how much expenditure in terms of financial and other resources will the major players deem justifiable in order to gain access to those resources?
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:46 am

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The question is this, namely whether the USE with its more progressive social norms and political ideals will be willing to practice the kind of ruthless colonialism that took place in our timeline. I don't expect so, because it will go against what Mr Flint is trying to do with the series, which (on the philosophical level) seems to ask 'what if we had done history differently?'


The potentially amusingly "evil" option would be for the USE to make sure that enough of their information is spread to the populations that risk being exploited. That could seriously mess things up.

IMO, they SHOULD do just that.


And there have been suggestions in 1633 that Richelieu had manuvered to gain control of North America from the English (albeit I can't believe even Charles I would be that stupid)in order to access it's riches for the greater glory of France (which may never happen, as currently the Cardinal has problems closer to home...)


But is it really stupid? IF the native populations are given a heads up, then control of N.America will not be anywhere nearly as easy as historically.

And as far as information tells about the future history, UK would loose control over N.A. to the forming of USA anyway, even IF that happens at all now.

He drops a continual headache and drain on resources which in the end comes out as a big loss in return for political capital and influence(and probably 2nd hand access to resources).

Sure, he could have gone the route of trying to preempt history in ways that allows UK to retain control over N.A., but when everyone else already knows what happened historically, that is going to be hard.

And that ignores my earlier point, that USE could influence N.A. indians to form their own nations and destroy any future option of a Euro-centric nation there.


Could an expedition by either the good or the bad possibly reach California in 1635 and return and could they recover enough gold to make the trip $worthwhile$? HB of CJ (old coot)

Other world locations will also exist. I choose the Sacramento California USA area because I know of it and it is accessible from the sea. Other geographic locations? There must be many.


Very worthwhile and yes there´s lots of them.


We shall see (I hope--after all I'm 61 and this series may be generational in scope....)

I turn 65 in July. <sigh> I don't expect to see an end to the series either.


Unless it takes more than 2 decades you should have a decent chance.

Hey, im 21, and not sure if i'm going to se the end of the series either.....

:lol:
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by HB of CJ   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:35 pm

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Excellent answers everybody and thank you. What makes this series of books so interesting and enjoyable is that they make us think in new ways. So many different things to consider; all influencing other things like ripples expanding from a rock tossed into a still pond.

Risk vs return. Who will do what and do it first? Now I am looking forward to the new stories I have not yet read regarding future gold rush expeditions. Sir Francis Drake sailed right by the Golden Gate off future California about 40 years before "The Ring Of Fire". He just missed seeing it.

What this means is that a reasonable expedition by whomever could in fact reach the very rich gold friends" Edit; "fields" within walking distance of the navigable Sacramento River. All you would need is basic placer mining equipment and a desire to become very rich. Another storyline? Oh boy!

HB of CJ (old coot) Lt.Cm. I love this forum
Last edited by HB of CJ on Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1635 Long Sea Voyages Of $Exploitation$?
Post by Hutch   » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:13 am

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HB of CJ wrote:Excellent answers everybody and thank you. What makes this series of books so interesting and enjoyable is that they make us think in new ways. So many different things to consider; all influencing other things like ripples expanding from a rock tossed into a still pond.

Risk vs return. Who will do what and do it first? Now I am looking forward to the new stories I have not yet read regarding future gold rush expeditions. Sir Francis Drake sailed right by the Golden Gate off future California about 40 years before "The Ring Of Fire". He just missed seeing it.

What this means is that a reasonable expedition by whomever could in fact reach the very rich gold friends within walking distance of the navigable Sacramento River. All you would need is basic placer mining equipment and a desire to become very rich. Another storyline? Oh boy!

HB of CJ (old coot) Lt.Cm. I love this forum



HB, as suggested above, I suggest you pick up 1636" Seas of Fortune, especially the second half of the book. It seems someone is already moving in the Sacramento region...and you might be a bit surprised who it is....
***********************************************
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Yep....I Can Guess Just Fine And....
Post by HB of CJ   » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:45 pm

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Yep....I can guess just fine and I do not want to give anything away from us reading yet another fine "Ring Of Fire" story. The only problem is how does this "Power That Be" in the making get a hold of the Grantville future history books in the first place? Humm. Curious.

Stranger things have happened in history. It would be more or less kinda easy to get to the inland Sacramento River area of alternate history California USA. Getting home would be much more difficult. Prevailing ocean winds, currents and seasons. HB of CJ (old coot) Lt.Cm.
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