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A New World Rebellion

Alternate history buff? Wander on over for a discussion about Eric Flint's 1632 series!
A New World Rebellion
Post by Meshakhad   » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:43 pm

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While I know Flint has quashed the suggestion that the USE try to liberate the New World colonies, I think there's a possibility that those colonies - particularly the Spanish ones - might break away on their own.

What I'm envisioning is something akin to Governor Barregos' Sepoy Option in the Honorverse novels - namely, a local governor decides to break away from the homeland. In this day and age, he'd crown himself King. It's quite likely that he'd borrow the name of the equivalent up-time nation, both to establish an identity for the new nation and to give his cause the aura of historical inevitability.
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Re: A New World Rebellion
Post by kenl511   » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:53 pm

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Meshakhad wrote:While I know Flint has quashed the suggestion that the USE try to liberate the New World colonies, I think there's a possibility that those colonies - particularly the Spanish ones - might break away on their own.

What I'm envisioning is something akin to Governor Barregos' Sepoy Option in the Honorverse novels - namely, a local governor decides to break away from the homeland. In this day and age, he'd crown himself King. It's quite likely that he'd borrow the name of the equivalent up-time nation, both to establish an identity for the new nation and to give his cause the aura of historical inevitability.


I think it is as likely that English Colonists would rebel against Richelieu after Charles' selling them to France. Especially if they get a precis of US History.
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Re: A New World Rebellion
Post by akira.taylor   » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:21 pm

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kenl511 wrote:
Meshakhad wrote:While I know Flint has quashed the suggestion that the USE try to liberate the New World colonies, I think there's a possibility that those colonies - particularly the Spanish ones - might break away on their own.

What I'm envisioning is something akin to Governor Barregos' Sepoy Option in the Honorverse novels - namely, a local governor decides to break away from the homeland. In this day and age, he'd crown himself King. It's quite likely that he'd borrow the name of the equivalent up-time nation, both to establish an identity for the new nation and to give his cause the aura of historical inevitability.


I think it is as likely that English Colonists would rebel against Richelieu after Charles' selling them to France. Especially if they get a precis of US History.


The issue with that is that there just aren't that many people in the English Colonies. There might be more French at this point, actually. It has been pointed out (on the Bar) that none of the colonies has the population to resist French take-over.
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Re: A New World Rebellion
Post by kenl511   » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:20 pm

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Percyville, Virginia had a population of close to 2,000 people in 1630 according my ancestor's journal (he lived there and was one of the "leaders") including children and resident Indians. The population included the Indian survivors of epidemics, English and Scottish Catholics, French Hugenots, Italian and Irish Protestants and Lithuanian Uniates. Technically, it was a Royally chartered colony owned by the Percys. Reality was slightly different, the Percy funds used to fund it were embezzled by a servant who was honest until he was accused of theft. Most of the residents of Percyville were refugees from persecution or their children.

Percyville was considered Virginia at the time as there was no North Carolina. It was later named Perryville. One of the attractive features for refugees was that it was so hard to reach from the established ports.
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Re: A New World Rebellion
Post by dscott8   » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:50 am

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akira.taylor wrote:The issue with that is that there just aren't that many people in the English Colonies. There might be more French at this point, actually. It has been pointed out (on the Bar) that none of the colonies has the population to resist French take-over.


There are plenty of people. Iroquois, Roanokes, Seminoles, Apaches, etc. Make them an offer -- you help us gain our independence from the European powers, we respect your culture and work with you as equals.
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Re: A New World Rebellion
Post by biochem   » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:08 am

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There are plenty of people. Iroquois, Roanokes, Seminoles, Apaches, etc. Make them an offer -- you help us gain our independence from the European powers, we respect your culture and work with you as equals.


This is easier said than done. There are huge variations between tribes, including those listed. Some tribes were a lot more amenable to interactions with outsiders than others.

And then there is the whole issue of intertribal conflicts. Tribes that have been fighting one another for generations aren't going to be too thrilled to accept an offer from a power which has just allied itself with their hereditary enemy.

However, some deals could be made. They would just have to be WELL thought out in advance as to which tribes to approach and how to successfully approach them.
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Re: A New World Rebellion
Post by dscott8   » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:14 am

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biochem wrote:And then there is the whole issue of intertribal conflicts. Tribes that have been fighting one another for generations aren't going to be too thrilled to accept an offer from a power which has just allied itself with their hereditary enemy.

However, some deals could be made. They would just have to be WELL thought out in advance as to which tribes to approach and how to successfully approach them.


Nothing unites people like a common enemy. When the Native American tribes learn what was done to them by European colonial powers in the other time line, their common defense interests should outweigh local conflicts.
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Re: A New World Rebellion
Post by biochem   » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:10 am

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Nothing unites people like a common enemy. When the Native American tribes learn what was done to them by European colonial powers in the other time line, their common defense interests should outweigh local conflicts.


Maybe... Our timeline is full of examples of one tribe helping the European powers against another tribe. Short term they benefited by this arrangement but long term it was disastrous. Humans then like humans now have a tendency to think short term. Some false promises by the European powers that of course we're not going to behave like those guys in the other timeline, see here's some extra weapons that they didn't give your counterparts. People often tend to believe what they want to hear.
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Re: A New World Rebellion
Post by Meshakhad   » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:28 am

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As I mentioned, I actually think that the Spanish colonies (or Portuguese) might be more likely to secede. They're more developed, after all.
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Re: A New World Rebellion
Post by pokermind   » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:31 am

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SPOILER WARNING

The following from Baen's Bar Snerker Forum on future 1632 verse novels

















Link for those on the Bar

http://bar.baen.com/index.php?t=msg&th=93553&start=0&

Virginia DeMarce wrote:
1632 Plot Snerking at 2012 WorldCon

This is unedited.
Virginia

2012 WorldCon, Chicago
1632 mini-con
Snerking the Plots
3 September 2012 6:00-7:30 p.m.

At the table:
Eric Flint, Chuck Gannon, Paula Goodlett, Rick Boatright, Walter Hunt

In the roon:
Mark Huston, Herb Sakalaucks, Walt Boyes, Gorg Huff, David Carrico,

Taking notes:
Virginia DeMarce

= = = = = = = = = = =
Eric meaning of "snerking." Amounts to giving people spoilers. Give
some idea of what will happen in the series in the next one to two
years.

Snerk collars.

Single biggest thing that will be happening pretty soon that will impact
everything is that the Ottoman Empire is about to attack Austria. Once
that happens, everything practically everywhere is going to get
realigned one way or the other. Fear that peace was about to break out,
which is horrible in story terms. Neither the French nor the Spanish
have enough "weight" to make a plausible villain at this point. Most of
the military strength of the good guys will have to be devoted to that
fight, which leaves room for a lot of adventures on the periphery.

Eric will write the next mainstream solo novel; Mike and Max in Bavaria.
Mike thinks this is kind of wasteful, particularly as it becomes clearer
and clearer that the Turks are about to attack Austria. No possibility
of a sneak attack; moving a land army through the Balkans cannot be done
in less than two or three months. The Austrians have plenty of spies.
No way it's a feint just too expensive to move that many soldiers. GA
can be pigheaded; wants Maximilian hammered flat.

In a different novel, the Turks not only attack Vienna, but seize it
very quickly, which no one expect (1636: The Viennese Waltz, with Paula
and Gorg. Still pretty much intended to be a comic romance). Probably
Noelle Stull; Denise Beasley; Barbie consortium (a lot of girls in
peril).

Mike will settle things in Bavaria well enough to head off to help
Austria.

Then the next novel: How the Turks actually overrun Austria; how they
are prevented from going much farther. The Poles, Russians, and Spanish
will tacitly ally with the Turks, in the sense of making things easier
for them.

Commander Cantrell in the West Indies (Flint & Gannon). Eddie with new
Danish bride; Simpson to follow; but has to go into the Mediterranean
because of the Turks, and Eddie left stranded on his own.

Other big event that's going to start unfolding is that France is going
to start coming apart. Will be approaching this from several different
angles several different projects under way on this. Because Mike & GA
are tied up with the Turks, everyone else in Europe has to cope on their
own.

Series also moving into the New World. Either the book with Walter Hunt
or Iver Cooper's strings of stories (how the Japanese start colonizing
the west coast in the Bay Area); a series of adventures depicting a New
in in the Guyanas (1636: The Seas of Fortune). Next year, 2013.

Also coming out in 2013. David Carrico: 1636: The Devil's Opera. In
Magdeburg, same period depicted in Saxon Uprising. Stand-alone.

Walter Hunt & Eric Flint: One Mohawk and No Drums. All of this is
getting difficult to orchestrate. No cohesion. The way it would really
happen, but hard to keep the authors from crossing one another's lines.
Herb Sakalaucks' series on the Danish colony.

Hopefully soon something will happen in Asia, but that's way farther
out. Fascinating real pirate; may set himself up on his own.

Continue to unfold: Flint & Chuch Gannon, continue the unfolding of the
story line in Italy. After 1635: The Papal Stakes. Next will be 1636:
The Vatican Sanction (not only two popes but two very different
conceptions of how Catholicism should unfold.)

The further adventures of Sharon and Ruy are further down. Intersects
with the French developments.

Rick Boatright: Summation. Late 1636 into 1636, the French Civil War
starting.

Eric: Timeline. Ottomans reach Vienna by July of 1636. Everyone
expects a long siege; instead they overrun Vienna in a very short period
of time.

Chuck: attack up the Adriatic will bottle up the Venetian fleet about
October. Simpson will have to leave the Baltic in November; arrive in
the Med in December, thus negating the advantages.

Audience question.

Answer: Simpson is not bringing the ironclads. Sailing vessels; steam
power primarily a tactical application rather than for moving from place
to place.

Mark Huston & Eric working on a novel. Left Sir Thomas Wentworth in
Amsterdam in 1634; the novel will pick up about a year later after
Anatomy Lesson & Masque. Working with Rupert of the Rhine, his sister
Elisabeth, and the poet John Milton. Wind up involved in a bank robbery
of sorts. The serious side of this opposition to Charles (these are not
the radicals; these are the moderates; probably try to rob the Earl of
Cork's private stash).

Eric & Andrew Dennis working on on 1636: A Parcel of Rogues Julie in
Scotland. Andrew has medical problems, not in touch for a while.

Chuck has been bringing in the Irish, the Wild Geese. Most of all this
unfolding late 1635 and go into 1636; same with the Caribbean novel.

Rick: overarching theme: 1636: The World Falls Apart.

Audience: how is the Russian Civil War going to come out?

Eric: Toni has agreed to a contract for Kremlin Games sequel with Paula
and Gorg. They can't finish all their stuff until Eric finishes
Anaconda Project.

Sequence of irrelevancies from the audience. Some because Eric had
misspoken and had the Turks invading Australia rather than Austria.

Audience Malta, Savoy, etc. Eric says he honestly doesn't know the
answers on that.

Eric says he hasn't really thought about it.

Audience question about explaining where the Ottomans got all the new
weapons. Some explications by Eric. It may be crude, but it works,
especially if there's a lot of it and you're willing to take casualties.
Will have to take what Andrew did and say that Murad was kind of faking
it was really spying a lot. Contributions by Stanley Roberts
(Pantaleimon).

Rick it will be definably weird. Take, twist it, and then run it
through a Turkish mind.

Eric the Turks had potential. OTL they didn't just focus on it.

Chuck Gannon. Gale and Oliver; what's happening in Ireland? Rick's
never getting her back. They're going to Scotland? Will Darryl be
introduced to O'Donnell? Because of what's going on with the O'Neill
line.

Questions in regard to what Iver's Japan stories are doing in the light
of real OTL history.

Question. What happens to Taiwan?

Eric: I don't know. Iver has been thinking about this and will probably
tie it into whatever he does with the Chinese pirate/warlord. Really a
naval warlord. Broadly, he may keep southern China; screw-em, I'm just
going to carve out my own empire. Where exactly? It will depend.
Don't honestly know. Doesn't have the proposal yet and Iver not at
WorldCon this year.

Garrett Vance's story, All God's Children in the Burning East (RoF III).

Rick: just mention the word "Africa" in the light of Eric's academic
degrees.

Eric: Kind of interesting. A lot of what was real history obviously
isn't going to happen. Cape of Good Hope not to be settled by the
Dutch? Maybe not. Total difference because of the major way the slave
trade reorganized African power relations, very, very destructive.
Coast stronger than the inland empires. Will exist, but not going to
reach the proportions it did in our universe. The series will probably
never take it up because the results will take decades if not centuries
to unfold.

Jokes: 1641: The End of the Earth.

What if the series is still going on a hundred years from now?

Audience. Question on sugar plantations re slave trade.

Chuck Gannon. The survivors of the Dutch colonies in the Caribbean
aren't going to be worried about trade goods. How you get and reward
the labor could be a very interesting bit of political strife with the
Spanish.

Audience: rice fields in the Carolinas.

Walter Hunt almost all of which is later than this period. The
Carolinas not settled yet.

Audience persists. Sugar maples. Hunt says that current VT/NH largely
unpopulated. There's not even Connecticut yet.

Audience. What about the Mughal Empire as a source of slaves?

Eric: No, aren't going to deal with that yet. Doesn't know what he
wants to do with it. It's still a big, blank area. Also the Persian
empire is really a blank slate.

Audience: do the authors agree with one another politically.

Great laughter.

Eric: from day one, certain very broad parameters. No stories where
Americans come in and save the whole world. Opposed to jingoism. Likes
to have at least one up-timer in every story because it helps sales. In
many stories now, not the central figure.

Audience. Are the Indian tribes going to be technologically affected by
all these events so far away?

Hunt discussion of the Dutch trade.

Audience: Is there a bottleneck in regard to how many books in the
period can appear per year.

Eric: Depends on sales. Two novels and one anthology per years right
now would make Baen happy. If sales pick up, might do more. We're not
yet at the point where the bottleneck is a problem, but we can see it.
The main problem is scheduling months ahead of time; agreement with
Simon & Schuster. Could become one at some point.

Audience: Does the GG qualify for a Hugo magazine nomination?

Eric: Classified by SFWA as a professional magazine; meets all their
requirements. Stories in it are qualified for nominations for nebulas
and hugos. Good money coming in. Paula has a life; Rick has a day job.
Will be staying as a bi-monthly.

Paula software problems.

Audience: getting goodies if you subscribe at a higher level? What
happened?

Rick: Two separate issues. Designing the goodies. Distributing them.
We kind of lack a graphic and stuff designer to hand out. If you have
ideas of skills, we'd love to hear from you. Shipping? It's a pain in
the neck. Have found and negotiated with a company that does that kind
of fulfillment and can trigger it automatically from the GG site.
Expect that within the next few months, we'll have that problem
resolved.

Audience T-shirts, 1632.org; cafepress.

Long discussion of perks.

Eric: discovered when he did it for Jim Baen's Universe.

Prints?

Rick: have to negotiate commercial rights with each artist.

Audience: What about poster-sized maps.

Rick: Available now on the CafePress store. We need to do another map
updated to 1635-1636.

Audience: will genealogy be available?

Virginia: You can have the GEDCOM


Hope this answers some questions on what's coming,

Poker
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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