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Machine Tools to Start an Indusrital Revolution?

Alternate history buff? Wander on over for a discussion about Eric Flint's 1632 series!
Machine Tools to Start an Indusrital Revolution?
Post by pokermind   » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:21 pm

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Image

The contraption above is a Pratt & Whitney Screw machine an early automatic lathe. The slowly rotating drums and disks below are programed analog fashion to preformed repeated machining.

Starting at the left the first drum handles automatically feeding stock to the machine's collet[? sp.].

The disk controls the 'T' shaped thing that moves the drive belts forward and reverse from the two idler pulleys to the drive pulley in the center.

The next disk controls the right and left tools that shape the outside of the work. the left side of the disk controls the tool on the far side of the machine while the right side of the disk controls the tool on this side of the machine. Special tool bits are ground to make the outside shape in one pass, and the far side tool usually is the cut off tool.

The next drum controls the tool turret's depth of cut. Up to six operations. The turret holds drills, taps, dies, knurling tools etc. the things on the spoked wheel indexes the turret.

When each rotation finishes, ie the cut off tool cuts off the part the stock is automatically fed and clamped for the next part.

Machines like this were the backbone of the Industrial Revolution until replaced by computer controlled machines starting in the 1960s.
Last edited by pokermind on Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Machine Tools to Start an Indusrital Revolution?
Post by pokermind   » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:46 pm

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Look at the above Machine Shop notice the windows and the candle lantern, this was before electric lights. Tools are powered by an overhead belt and pulley system powered by either a water wheel or steam engine. These are the shops needed to start an industrial revolution. Notice that most of the tools use a lot of wood in their construction, metal is expensive compared to wood.

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By 1918 Machine tools were still mostly belt driven, but are now all metal. Why? Bessemer steel! All of these machines are general purpose tools requiring skilled operators.

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The automatic machines above need a skilled man to set up, but can be operated by a relatively unskilled operator as they automatically machine parts.

This is where the machine tool industry of Grantville must go.
Last edited by pokermind on Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Machine Tools to Start an Indusrital Revolution?
Post by pokermind   » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:00 pm

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The Railroads will spur the Machine tool industry in the 1632 verse as they did in our own. Grantville's machine shops will have at most a 24" lathe. The smallest wheels on a standard freight car are 33" in diameter requiring a 36" lathe. Think of a 4-4-0 with 60" drivers, a 70" lathe is needed! Look at the grinding tools needed for steam locomotive production:

Image
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The above illustrations of the massive machine tools that were used in the Railroad industry will give you an idea of why railroads spurred the machine tool industry in the nineteenth century.
Last edited by pokermind on Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Machine Tools to Start an Indusrital Revolution?
Post by pokermind   » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:03 am

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So you want to make internal combustion engines? Well here are a few of the machine tools you will have to make:

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Not to mention lots of the automatic lathes and other specialized tools. In fact to have an industrial revolution there will need to be a machine tool industry not to mention factories making drill bits, milling cutters, and a lot of other little things like micrometers.

The 1632 verse has had little on the rise of the machine tool industry and a few machine shops with small general purpose machines is just not going to cut it. What little is mentioned is mostly by Gorg Huff. But all think machine tools will just appear by magic. One thing gets me is how little time it takes to make things in the 1632 verse. Having made things with machine tools I can tell you it is not quick. There is set up time, machining time, then tear down to machine the next item. Some parts take minuets to make others days. A slight increase in production comes in making many of any one part. If you don't have to repeat set-up and tear-down then machining time and machine tool time is not squandered doing so. I have written a story on how the machine tool industry might start, unfortunately I have no way to submit it. I have tried unsuccessfully for two years to join Baen's Bar but have been unable to. And there is no provision to mail in an article it has to be internet. Oh well they will have to muddle through without a machine tool industry, still just five machine shops, and a few special machine tools. Well enough of griping. Enjoy looking at the tools that will never be in the 1632 verse.

Poker Mind

PS Railroads without wheel lathes think 18" wheels if that from a 24" lathe. If using the poor lubricants available in the 1630s a journal box burns at 40mph with 36" wheels it will burn at 20 mph with 18" wheels. Get the idea?
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Re: Machine Tools to Start an Indusrital Revolution?
Post by pokermind   » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:04 pm

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I could just scream! The latest Grantville Gazette just had a story by Gorg Huff and Paula Goodlett Ball Whats? where machine tools appear my magic. Tools to make the parts for ball bearings, swedes, truing wheels more presses for the cages, grinding machines for the races, even a treadle powered lathe for a Blacksmith shop etc. All made by the five Grantville machine shops at the same time they are making every thing else!

A treadle powered jewler's lathe I can believe, but a machine to make large turnings in iron, give me a break!

A six inch lathe has a two horsepower electric motor, and a man on a treadle can generate at most a third of a horsepower and not long and he is to machine parts while doing so? I could just scream!

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Re: Machine Tools to Start an Indusrital Revolution?
Post by phillies   » Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:08 pm

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The required horsepower is determined by how deep are the cuts you make. At low power, you must proceed very slowly, but you can in general proceed.

pokermind wrote:I could just scream! The latest Grantville Gazette just had a story by Gorg Huff and Paula Goodlett Ball Whats? where machine tools appear my magic. Tools to make the parts for ball bearings, swedes, truing wheels more presses for the cages, grinding machines for the races, even a treadle powered lathe for a Blacksmith shop etc. All made by the five Grantville machine shops at the same time they are making every thing else!

A treadle powered jewler's lathe I can believe, but a machine to make large turnings in iron, give me a break!

A six inch lathe has a two horsepower electric motor, and a man on a treadle can generate at most a third of a horsepower and not long and he is to machine parts while doing so? I could just scream!

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Re: Machine Tools to Start an Indusrital Revolution?
Post by beaker   » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:29 am

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That story was slushed more than a year ago. At the time i thought WFJ.

It fits the mold of a GG story to a T. We have a problem, we overcome problem by all pulling together, we have a romance(40yr old confirmed bachelor who hates to travel, goes to big city, meets girl who has her future planed, they meet twice and decide to throw out all their combined history and get married), finally we have a glowing conclusion where everyone lives happily ever after while getting rich.

Never mind that all the actions they are taking are irrational. The tools and tech do not exist, and that they are going into debt to their eyeballs.

This series is so far off the rails that it can't be considered science fiction. There is no science involved.

IMHO, when you remove the science, all that remains is pure fantasy. The designation should be changed.....



pokermind wrote:I could just scream! The latest Grantville Gazette just had a story by Gorg Huff and Paula Goodlett Ball Whats? where machine tools appear my magic. Tools to make the parts for ball bearings, swedes, truing wheels more presses for the cages, grinding machines for the races, even a treadle powered lathe for a Blacksmith shop etc. All made by the five Grantville machine shops at the same time they are making every thing else!

A treadle powered jewler's lathe I can believe, but a machine to make large turnings in iron, give me a break!

A six inch lathe has a two horsepower electric motor, and a man on a treadle can generate at most a third of a horsepower and not long and he is to machine parts while doing so? I could just scream!

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Re: Machine Tools to Start an Indusrital Revolution?
Post by beaker   » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:54 am

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That's why the series should be removed from science fiction and put in fantasy. There is no science involved.


pokermind wrote:I could just scream! The latest Grantville Gazette just had a story by Gorg Huff and Paula Goodlett Ball Whats? where machine tools appear my magic. Tools to make the parts for ball bearings, swedes, truing wheels more presses for the cages, grinding machines for the races, even a treadle powered lathe for a Blacksmith shop etc. All made by the five Grantville machine shops at the same time they are making every thing else!

A treadle powered jewler's lathe I can believe, but a machine to make large turnings in iron, give me a break!

A six inch lathe has a two horsepower electric motor, and a man on a treadle can generate at most a third of a horsepower and not long and he is to machine parts while doing so? I could just scream!

CPO Poker Mind
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Re: Machine Tools to Start an Indusrital Revolution?
Post by Imaginos1892   » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:14 pm

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I also highly recommend that you go to Project Gutenberg and download Steam Generation And Use from Babcock and Wilcox. Gives a short history lesson on boilers and a whole lot of valuable information. Dare we hope that somewhere in Grantville there is a copy of this treatise?
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Even The Entire USA Can't Do That Stuff TODAY...Much Less.
Post by HB of CJ   » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:07 pm

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The folks in Grantsville. IMHO, all of this machine tool madness is fine and dandy, but it may not have any sense of practicality in the Ring Of Fire Universe. The hillbillies do not have 5% of what it would take to make what it would take to make what it would take. You get the idea. They are cut off "out of time".

Another big problem is has not been adequately discussed is that spies of various nations, (France?) have ALREADY raided the various public, private and school libraries. They know all this machine tool stuff is also possible and they might have the weight of entire functioning national governments behind them.

Sosss...what exactly IS DOABLE or WORKABLE? Dunno fur sures. Perhaps a step by step slow approach in re-establishing a machine tool capability....this is if the surrounding enemy gives the new United States any time to do so....or if the enemy does not do so on their own. Times are going to get very tough indeed. Just me. HB of CJ (old coot) :)
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