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Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added

David's and Jacob Holo's newest alternate, cross history novel.
Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:12 pm

runsforcelery
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Dilandu wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
And how, precisely, would Great Britain and France dictate military and/or economic conditions within Germany when Germany is basically offering them a victor's peace? The prewar British army is gone, courtesy of the Dunkirk evacuation that didn't happen. The UK's home air defense is probably pretty good; their industry is probably continuing to gear up, but the potential for any successful return to the continent without the sort of overwhelming amphibious capability that existed in 1944 is . . . unlikely to prosper, let us say.



Dilandu wrote:Oh yeah. So after Germany betrayed everyone's trust several times in row, started the war, occupied France and established itself as dominant power in Europe, everyone would be just willing to believe, when Germans declared "okay guys, we are willing to fold a bit, but we would not give back Czech, and we would still have the biggest army in Europe. What guarantees we gave that we didnt just playing for time to re-arm once more and kill you all? Well, the best possible, of course - the honest promise of our Kaiser, who are so honest! He himself said so".

RFC, to obtain anything like that, you need to kill Stalin and Churchill first. And also Darlang and de Gaulle. Because neither of them would agree on such conditions, AFTER Germany already demonstrated that it couldn't be trusted.


Dilandu, you didn't answer my question. My question was, how are France and Great Britain, which have just been decisively defeated, going to dictate the conditions upon which they "accept" peace with the victorious Germans. They lost. Germany won. Germany is saying, we'll give you back your toys, but we're keeping all of ours. Of course, if you don't want to accept, we can continue occupying the half of France we already occupy; we can occupy the other half of France, which you can't prevent us from occupying, and we will start building bunches and bunches and bunches of U-boats. Unless Great Britain and France expected either the USSR or the US to ride to their rescue — which seems a little unlikely in the case of Joseph Stalin, the arch opportunist, or of FDR, who hasn't even been able to get entirely rid of the Neutrality Act yet — what other option do they have except to say "Okay," and not promise to cease disarming themselves? In fact, that is probably precisely what Churchill would have done, although I personally doubt that Churchill's government would have survived given the failure of the BEF to escape. He had too many political enemies back home to remain prime minister if the shooting wasn't still going on, in my opinion. And in this scenario, de Gaulle is simply a colonel who probably didn't escape to Great Britain, and who therefore is scarcely in a position to dictate the policy of a restored Republic. Indeed, it is highly probable (in my opinion) that, given a cease-fire after the surrender of the BEF and then the offer of the return of all of France to French control, the Petain government would have survived. For that matter, his reputation probably would have survived, because the years of collaboration with Nazi Germany never happened.

You can criticize the post-Hitler history that I've proposed all you want, but you have to start from the point at which the restored Kaiser makes his offer to the Nazis' adversaries who have been knocked even flatter than they were in our history. And there's nothing in the history that I've proposed which is impossible. For that matter, I don't even think there's very much in it that's implausible.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

runsforcelery wrote:think it's quite clear that you and I are not going to agree on the plausibility of this scenario. It's not because I regard the Germans as the champions of the Western Light any more than I think the Teutonic Knights were a godly, purely altruistic crusading order. I built the scenario out of a Western perspective on what would/might have happened had a post-Hitler Germany voluntarily renounced its conqueror's position in Western Europe after spending a year or so basically shooting all the Nazis (who hadn't already shot each other) and how willing even recent enemies would be to unite against a third, common enemy. Whether or not that's plausible to you, it is plausible to me, and that's what I have to go with at the end of the day.


Dilandu wrote:Well, I hope, you would not forbid me from preparing the detailed explanation, why exactly I consider this scenario utterly impossible? ;)


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:57 pm

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Firstly, let's find the way how so-called "kaiser" would explain peoples of Germany that they should fold back and left Poland and Alsace & Lorraine DESPITE seemingly winning everywhere. Basically, how the situation would looks like? "Okay, we sacrificed a lot, we achieved all our goals, and now we must give it all back, because I want that".

The most probable outcome would be immediate counter-coup by dissatisfied military & Nazi members. And it would almost guaranteed to succeed, because the popular uproar against the idea of "folding back and suing for peace" would be enormous. Just try to imagine, what would happens if in spring 1945 Truman would suddenly declare: "we have a good fun, but now it's time to go back, and return everything we won to Japan". Or Stalin, suddenly deciding to sue for peace, while Soviet troops are at the gates of Berlin. Plausible? Clearly not.

Even if - somehow - "kaiser" would be able to held some resemblance of power despite being despised by absolute majority of German population, the revolt, the subsequent in-fighting would essentially destroy the German war machine. It would be impossible in such scenario to implement any kind of "de-nazification", without essentially destroying the German military. You know, that Western historians put a lot of blame about 1941 Red Army failures on Stalin's purges? Well, you basically would have the same situation, during the actual war. And, I must stress this again: the only real advantage German army have during the first years of the war, was the high competence of its low-ranking officers and noncoms, trained in Reichswehr. If "kaiser" starts to shatter his army, the whole "mighty, competent" Wehrmacht would quickly turn into its 1944 state.

And what would such turbulence in Germany means for Churchill and Darlan? Exactly, that the Germany is NOT as powerful and stable as it tries to look like, and they are desperate for peace because otherwise they could not fight anymore. And so what? The Britain lost an army? It could draft more. The France occupied? They still have their fleet and troops in North Africa. And of course, there are comrade Stalin, who would NOT sit idly - and who would immediately start to probe the ground both in Berlin and in London.

And let's not even start now about such weird act of "kaiser" as publishing some "secret treaties" with USSR... Which would not only antagonize Stalin (the only one around who currently have no particular dislike toward "German Empire"!), but would also demonstrate, that the new German regime have no intention of obliging to any treaty at all. So if you wanted to isolate the GERMANY, yes, it would be the perfect way - after that, Germany would literally have no major European power which is NOT hostile toward it.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:21 pm

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At VERY least, the Germans would demand to hold Poland. After all, you declared that West have no real choice in that matter, so there are no single practical reason why Germany should not demand that. Of course, this would immediately render moot all your next claims about "USSR in isolation because Stalin didn't want to return the Polish territories it took"...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ine_en.svg

But may I say you something? :) It's moot by definition. The line at which Poland was divided came along the Eastern borders of the Poland, defined by Curzon in 1919, with only Bialystok as major exception. Stalin only took back what Poland took from USSR in 1920s - Western Belarus and Western Ukraine. Yes, he was pretty scrupulous on the formal side of the issue. It would be just impossible for Germans to legally insist that those territories must be returned to Poland; they weren't rightfully Polish to start with, and their population, frankly, did not like Polish rule.

Sorry, RFC, but more than half a century long-dead Soviet dictator outplayed you in this little game)
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:44 pm

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Perhaps you should write your own Alt-Hist book. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Dilandu wrote:At VERY least, the Germans would demand to hold Poland. After all, you declared that West have no real choice in that matter, so there are no single practical reason why Germany should not demand that. Of course, this would immediately render moot all your next claims about "USSR in isolation because Stalin didn't want to return the Polish territories it took"...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ine_en.svg

But may I say you something? :) It's moot by definition. The line at which Poland was divided came along the Eastern borders of the Poland, defined by Curzon in 1919, with only Bialystok as major exception. Stalin only took back what Poland took from USSR in 1920s - Western Belarus and Western Ukraine. Yes, he was pretty scrupulous on the formal side of the issue. It would be just impossible for Germans to legally insist that those territories must be returned to Poland; they weren't rightfully Polish to start with, and their population, frankly, did not like Polish rule.

Sorry, RFC, but more than half a century long-dead Soviet dictator outplayed you in this little game)
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:58 pm

Dilandu
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DrakBibliophile wrote:Perhaps you should write your own Alt-Hist book. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


Maybe in future. By now, I wrote only some short stories. And, I have... quite a lot of experience with alternate history; I'm a proud member of Russian alternate history community since 2006. :) So I have some knack in analyzing the timelines.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:50 pm

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Location: South Carolina

Dilandu wrote:Firstly, let's find the way how so-called "kaiser" would explain peoples of Germany that they should fold back and left Poland and Alsace & Lorraine DESPITE seemingly winning everywhere. Basically, how the situation would looks like? "Okay, we sacrificed a lot, we achieved all our goals, and now we must give it all back, because I want that".

The most probable outcome would be immediate counter-coup by dissatisfied military & Nazi members. And it would almost guaranteed to succeed, because the popular uproar against the idea of "folding back and suing for peace" would be enormous. Just try to imagine, what would happens if in spring 1945 Truman would suddenly declare: "we have a good fun, but now it's time to go back, and return everything we won to Japan". Or Stalin, suddenly deciding to sue for peace, while Soviet troops are at the gates of Berlin. Plausible? Clearly not.

Even if - somehow - "kaiser" would be able to held some resemblance of power despite being despised by absolute majority of German population, the revolt, the subsequent in-fighting would essentially destroy the German war machine. It would be impossible in such scenario to implement any kind of "de-nazification", without essentially destroying the German military. You know, that Western historians put a lot of blame about 1941 Red Army failures on Stalin's purges? Well, you basically would have the same situation, during the actual war. And, I must stress this again: the only real advantage German army have during the first years of the war, was the high competence of its low-ranking officers and noncoms, trained in Reichswehr. If "kaiser" starts to shatter his army, the whole "mighty, competent" Wehrmacht would quickly turn into its 1944 state.

And what would such turbulence in Germany means for Churchill and Darlan? Exactly, that the Germany is NOT as powerful and stable as it tries to look like, and they are desperate for peace because otherwise they could not fight anymore. And so what? The Britain lost an army? It could draft more. The France occupied? They still have their fleet and troops in North Africa. And of course, there are comrade Stalin, who would NOT sit idly - and who would immediately start to probe the ground both in Berlin and in London.

And let's not even start now about such weird act of "kaiser" as publishing some "secret treaties" with USSR... Which would not only antagonize Stalin (the only one around who currently have no particular dislike toward "German Empire"!), but would also demonstrate, that the new German regime have no intention of obliging to any treaty at all. So if you wanted to isolate the GERMANY, yes, it would be the perfect way - after that, Germany would literally have no major European power which is NOT hostile toward it.


Okay, so now we don't have to shoot Churchill and de Gaulle, the Kaiser is going to be overthrown by his own subjects.

Why?

He came to power specifically because the Nazi party, from its leadership elements on down, had been utterly discredited by the squabble for power after Hitler's death. The Nazi party in the Germany in Benjamin 2's universe had civil-warred itself to death. That's why there was a power vacuum, rather than simply putting the highest ranking surviving Nazi into the Chancellor's office. So, not going to be very many Nazis around to organize a countercoup.

The regular military are the ones who proposed the Hohenzollern return. They can justifiably rest on their laurels for the way in which they totally trounced everyone they came up against. Even the most ardent Nazis didn't have any territorial claims on France — aside from that pesky Alsace Lorraine — and the Kaiser was keeping the Sudetenland, the rest of Czechoslovakia, and Austria. Czechoslovakia might be negotiable; the rest wasn't. He was prepared to give up a sizable chunk of what had been German territory pre-World War I, for three reasons. First, the people living on it were predominantly Polish. Second, he knew that if Germany wasn't going to be the pariah of Europe it had to make genuine concessions. Third, he was already thinking in terms of revealing the secret protocol and he was pretty sure that Stalin wouldn't give up eastern Poland. Which, of course, would be a talking point in his favor as the reasonable successor to a pair of lunatic dictators.

The German military never wanted to invade Russia, and unless the restored Empire was willing to make some really significant concessions, it was going to find itself up against Russia all alone at sometime in the very near future (whether or not Stalin actually intended to come further west is actually moot in this case; what matters is what Germany thought he was going to do), quite probably with France and Great Britain poised to hit Germany from the back in conjunction with Russia. Mind you, the Soviet Union and the United Kingdom would've made strange bedfellows without Germany doing them the favor of attacking both of them, but one could argue that a German-Soviet war while the war against France and the UK was still unresolved would've been just that. I very much doubt that the German military would have objected to giving back France or the BEF in return for a peace treaty that lets it keep its own 1939 borders and the Polish corridor. Not only would they have accomplished the majority of their strategic goals, but they would be as aware as you are of the temptation a "shattered" German military would pose for the currently defeated French and British. I doubt very much that the French fleet would have worried them very much, but they would be aware of the French troops in Africa and Indochina. At the same time, they would be very much aware of how disenheartened France is and of how difficult it would be to convince the French people to support a continuation of the war when the Germans are offering them everything they would be fighting the war to obtain aside from the destruction of Germany.

The Kaiser hasn't betrayed any of the participants in pre-World War II diplomacy, because he wasn't involved in in it. He has inherited (in more than one sense of the word) a really dirty job and he intends to do the best at it that he can. France and the UK declared war on Germany, not the other way around, when Germany invaded Poland. Now, having kicked the Allies' ass, the new Emperor of Germany is saying "Look, this whole damned war was never my idea. It was those lunatic Nazis, most of whom are now dead, and a lot of the rest of whom are in prison. I don't want to fight you guys, and you sure as hell don't want to fight me when I already occupy half of France, I can take the other half anytime I want, and the peacetime British army is now in POW cages in Pomerania. And, believe me, you really don't want to get me started on U-boat warfare while I control the north French coast and have no intentions of frittering away my resources in a war in the East. So, I am prepared to admit that Germany started the war this time around. I am prepared to return all occupied territory in the West — yes, including Alsace-Lorraine. I am prepared to repatriate the British army and release all of my French POWs. In return, I will keep the Polish corridor but return to Polish control the rest of German-occupied 1939 Poland. I will keep Austria and the Sudetenland. And I will keep the rest of Czechoslovakia, because I am looking to the threat on my eastern frontier. You don't have to accept my terms, but if you don't, you will leave me with no choice but to prosecute the war until I am convinced that neither France nor England will be any threat to Germany at the time that I confront the Bolsheviks."

Now, you may think that no German would make that offer. I disagree, given the circumstances which brought him back to the throne. And I also disagree with the notion that he would automatically be faced with some sort of mass revolt or that the German military would tear itself apart because it is so furious that he has disgorged the territories in the west that no one wanted in the first place. And the German people at this point are sick and tired of the violence which has swept back and forth across Germany, worse than the worst days of the Weimar Republic. The Nazi party has pretty much ceased to exist and has been systematically routed out of positions of power, and the rest of Germany is probably pretty pissed at them for the mess they've made. The only points at which I think German pride might cavil would be the return of Alsace Lorraine and sizable portions of Poland, and I think that the Emperor would make the point to his subjects that "This is the price we pay for having allowed the lunatics to lead us into a lunatic war. And if it removes us from the category of rogue nations, it's worth every penny."

As far as publishing the secret protocol of the Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty is concerned, why on earth shouldn't he? The treaty was negotiated not by his government, but by the Nazi government which has now been overthrown to create his. He's not breaching any secret diplomacy to which he or any member of his current government were parties. Instead, he's revealing what he characterizes as a "criminal conspiracy" and he's doing it for multiple reasons.

He's doing it because, cynically speaking, it is entirely to his benefit to further criminalize and marginalize Adolf Hitler, who hasn't carried out the Holocaust in this universe. The worse he can make Hitler look, the better it makes him look as an alternative to der Fuhrer. He's also doing it because he's "coming clean" with France and Great Britain. He doesn't expect them to suddenly embrace him, but he's putting his cards on the table. He's also doing it because it discredits Stalin, who he regards as Germany's most dangerous true enemy. In particular, since he's pretty damn sure Stalin won't give up the portion of Poland the USSR occupied, he shifts Western animus from no-longer-Nazi Germany to still-communist USSR as the true threat to peace in Western Europe. And I don't think very many people in Western Europe would be thinking in terms of the Curzon Line in 1942. Stalin could certainly make that argument, but the Polish counterargument would be "Yeah, and Russia took them away from the Polish monarchy." If you think that a Soviet Union which declined to give back territory which had been part of Poland (however it became part of Poland) at the time that Britain and France guaranteed Poland's borders wouldn't be regarded as a pariah by the British and the French, then you have a very different read of human nature from my own.

The bottom line is that I think all of this is entirely plausible. You may not. However, Jacob and I are the guys writing the novel, and I expect that the majority of our readers will find the history entirely plausible.


By the way, there is no comparison at all between the position of the restored German Empire in Benjamin 2's 1942 and Stalin at the gates of Berlin or Truman after the occupation of Japan.

Total German fatal casualties in Poland or about 15,000. I don't have numbers for WIA in Poland. Total German casualties in Western Europe in May-June 1940 were 27,000 KIA, 18,400 MIA, and 111,000 WIA. That's about 171,000 total casualties, or about half of German casualties at Verdun, alone, in World War I. It certainly bears no comparison whatsoever to the 20,000,000-plus dead the USSR lost in World War II.

As for the US, the United States military suffered 407,300 KIA and about 672,000 WIA, so the total that Truman would be looking at — after fighting his way clear across the Pacific against someone who had begun the war by launching a surprise attack on a US military base in time of peace — would be about 1,079,000, or about six times Germany's casualties in both campaigns. Adding US MIAs (for which I don't have numbers) probably would shift that ratio a bit, but not enough to change my point that German losses in Poland and France were trivial in comparison to those suffered by the Soviets on their way to Berlin and by the US on its way to both Berlin and Tokyo. And both the Soviets in 1945 and the Americans in 1946 could legitimately claim that they were the side which had been attacked, not the side which started the war, which creates a whole different level of motivation. So equating either of them to my fictional Kaiser is a totally false comparison.

And I might point out that the US did, basically, give Japan back to Japan by 1952. There were a lot of ulterior motives for doing that, given the perceived threat of communism and the 1947-48 economic crisis in Japan, but then again, the Kaiser in Benjamin 2's universe had a few ulterior motives of his own, didn't he?

Just saying.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:28 pm

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He came to power specifically because the Nazi party, from its leadership elements on down, had been utterly discredited by the squabble for power after Hitler's death.


And how exactly in that sorry state Germany managed to defeat anyone? And not just defeat, but more effectively that in real world, somehow being able to stop British evacuation at Dunkirk? (the Royal Navy would be VERY glad to see German tanks trying to rush Dunkirk. Battleships absolutely LOVE to play with targets that couldn't even fight back)

Sorry, but any major infighting after Hitler's death at 16 May would basically means the immediate failure of French campaign. Germany military would not simply "proceed as planned" in that case; the whole French campaign is far too risky to try it out with the Germany's high command dysfunctional.
So, not going to be very many Nazis around to organize a countercoup.


Er... so basically you killed an awful lot of Germany functionaries, both civilian and military, including quite a lot of pretty competent one. And you consider Germany not being gutted?

He was prepared to give up a sizable chunk of what had been German territory pre-World War I, for three reasons. First, the people living on it were predominantly Polish. Second, he knew that if Germany wasn't going to be the pariah of Europe it had to make genuine concessions.


He may want anything he wanted, sorry for the pun. Any attempt to give up Poland would be considered by German peoples and military as betrayal of their interests. It may work, if Germany was in troubles; it would NOT work with Germany being victorious.

Third, he was already thinking in terms of revealing the secret protocol and he was pretty sure that Stalin wouldn't give up eastern Poland. Which, of course, would be a talking point in his favor as the reasonable successor to a pair of lunatic dictators.


Of course Stalin wouldn't give up Eastern Poland! Seriously, RFC, you need to learn history of this region a bit better. The Eastern Poland that Stalin took back was composed of territories that weren't Polish to start with.
I very much doubt that the German military would have objected to giving back France or the BEF in return for a peace treaty that lets it keep its own 1939 borders and the Polish corridor.


Why they should agree on that, when they basically could dictate any therms possible? Sorry, RFC, but you are contradicting yourself very hard; at one point you claim that "Britain and France could only agree on German therms", at other, you did not let Germany claim what it could reasonably expect. The decision to give up Poland would cause immediate outrage, because it would seems like defeatism and betrayal of German interests.


The German military never wanted to invade Russia,


Oh please! This is just ridiculous! Yeah, yeah, German military didn't want to invade Russia, it was all Hitler's fault, all crimes were committed by Gestapo and SS, while regulars were just a bunch of innocent hippies... Please.

As far as publishing the secret protocol of the Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty is concerned, why on earth shouldn't he? The treaty was negotiated not by his government, but by the Nazi government which has now been overthrown to create his. He's not breaching any secret diplomacy to which he or any member of his current government were parties. Instead, he's revealing what he characterizes as a "criminal conspiracy" and he's doing it for multiple reasons.


Because, simply speaking, it would gave him exactly nothing. There weren't anything in those protocols that might damage the USSR reputation. So the only thing he really done, was immediately antagonize the only country that was still NON-hostile to him.

Which basically means, that Stalin would immediately send his envoys to London to suggest "a commonality of interests" against Germany.

Not to mention, that the historical precedent, when Bolsheviks revealed the secret diplomacy of Tsar government, damaged THEM much more.

He's also doing it because it discredits Stalin,


How?

And I don't think very many people in Western Europe would be thinking in terms of the Curzon Line in 1942.


This is pretty obvious mistake on your part.

Citing no one other that Churchill:

... That the Russian armies should stand on this line was clearly necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace. At any rate, the line is there, and an Eastern Front has been created which Nazi Germany does not dare assail. When Herr von Ribbentrop was summoned to Moscow last week it was to learn the fact, and to accept the fact, that the Nazi designs upon the Baltic States and upon the Ukraine must come to a dead stop


October, 1939.

With all respect, but your position on this question have completely no sense, historical or pragmatical. From historical point of view, the question of Poland Eastern Borders was well-known in Europe, and they would OBVIOUSLY think in therms of Curzon line, especially with Soviet de-facto standing on it. From pragmatical point of view, it make no sense for EITHER Germany or Britain to antagonize the Russia. Even less for France.


The bottom line is that I think all of this is entirely plausible. You may not. However, Jacob and I are the guys writing the novel, and I expect that the majority of our readers will find the history entirely plausible.


Sorry, RFC, but "what you think" just didn't sums up with basic logic and historical facts. If you made "all-good Germans against those evil Russian" piece, you really should at least try to camouflage it a bit better.

Oh, I did not doubt that majority of readers would find it plausible. After all, the "good Germans , bad Russians" idea is - using our Russian expression - translating from every TV, radio, refrigerators and flat irons non-stop since the 1950s. The average peoples didn't like to think about complex problems when propaganda give them simple, easy to understood (wrong) answers, you know)

Just next time, when you start to do a Nazi-whitewashing, anti-Russian piece - please make it more coherent, will you? ;) You have devoted readers not only in USA, you know)
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:35 pm

runsforcelery
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Location: South Carolina

Dilandu wrote:
Just next time, when you start to do a Nazi-whitewashing, anti-Russian piece - please make it more coherent, will you? ;) You have devoted readers not only in USA, you know)



I think this ends the conversation.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:06 am

Dilandu
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runsforcelery wrote:
Dilandu wrote:
Just next time, when you start to do a Nazi-whitewashing, anti-Russian piece - please make it more coherent, will you? ;) You have devoted readers not only in USA, you know)



I think this ends the conversation.


Yes, I'm afraid it is. I'm sorry, that I was too harsh here. I relly shouldn't use such wording, and for that I could only ask forgivness.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added
Post by runsforcelery   » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:25 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2327
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Dilandu wrote:
Dilandu wrote:
Just next time, when you start to do a Nazi-whitewashing, anti-Russian piece - please make it more coherent, will you? ;) You have devoted readers not only in USA, you know)



runsforcelery wrote:I think this ends the conversation.


Yes, I'm afraid it is. I'm sorry, that I was too harsh here. I relly shouldn't use such wording, and for that I could only ask forgivness.



Dilandu — I am responding here instead of replying directly to the personal message you sent me, because I wanted the rest of the group to be aware that you had apologized personally, as well as online.

First, let me say, apology accepted. You and I have enjoyed many a . . . robust, shall we say, discussion. For the most part, "enjoyed" is the exactly correct verb, too. You bring a different viewpoint which I value. I may not always agree with you, whether as to matters historical, the probable/possible actions of historical figures confronting non-historical circumstances, and the elements that drive stories, but I respect honest intellectual challenge, and that, by and large, is what you have offered.

Your language can be a tad blunt on occasion, but I blame at least in part on social media, because I think it's pared away a lot of the care people used to take with the written word. I don't think that most of us think as long and hard about the fact that the recipient of our photons isn't also the recipient of our expressions or are tone of voice as we did in the days when we were exchanging written letters. There's so much immediacy and ability to respond virtually instantly in real time that we lose track of the fact that there is still a barrier between us and the other person which can all too readily lead to misunderstandings. That's one reason I use as many emoji's as I use when I am online.

I also recognize that passion produces passionate language, and believe it or not, I am totally aware that Americans and Europeans and Russians do not see and understand history the same way. I do try to be sensitive to that; I don't always succeed, and partly that's because what drives the stories has to be plausible for my primary readership, and my primary readership is American. So there are going to be times when I step on someone else's understanding and intellectual and emotional investment. Unfortunately, that comes with the territory, and for the most part, I am prepared to discuss those instances either privately or online.

There does come a point where the author and the reader have to simply agree to disagree and move on. It's a little tougher for the author to do that without looking like he is dismissing the other party to the discussion or simply shutting it down because he's pissed. I admit, I was pissed by the quote in my last post, mostly because of the "Nazi whitewash" part of it. I lost family in Europe in World War II, too, so that one hit a particularly sore spot with me. But I whacked your knuckles for it, and you owned up and apologized, and it's done.

I think I should also add, though, for the benefit of anyone else reading this post, that I find your ability to present eloquent and (usually :lol: ) reasoned arguments in a second language very impressive. Back in the misty days of my youth, I was reasonably fluent in both French and Spanish. These days, I am mostly back to English through sheer lack of practice. There is no way in the universe that I could offer such cogent critiques of a Russian writer writing in Russian.

Now, just because we're making nice right now, don't think it means I'm going to concede any future arguments without one hell of a fight! :lol: :lol:

Take care


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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