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Radical shift of ship design

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Radical shift of ship design
Post by mugger48   » Thu May 14, 2015 10:52 pm

mugger48
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I don't want to be a whiner, but as a fan that has closely followed the technical drawings placed in each book, the apparent radical revisionism of the evergreen ship designs is really bothering me. It is a radical shift from a carefully explained logic that supposedly drove centuries of ship design. Is this only due to artists that want to put their own stamp on the visuals? My own opinion is that the old drawings were better designs, and to the engineering orriented, better looking. The new ship designs look like my nephew went nuts with mismatched Legos.

Anyways, what do you all think.

PS. I also like the tree cat art froM the old covers better than the new animations.

Please chime in y'all. Thanks.
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Re: Radical shift of ship design
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Fri May 15, 2015 4:03 pm

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mugger48 wrote:I don't want to be a whiner, but as a fan that has closely followed the technical drawings placed in each book, the apparent radical revisionism of the evergreen ship designs is really bothering me. It is a radical shift from a carefully explained logic that supposedly drove centuries of ship design. Is this only due to artists that want to put their own stamp on the visuals? My own opinion is that the old drawings were better designs, and to the engineering orriented, better looking. The new ship designs look like my nephew went nuts with mismatched Legos.

Anyways, what do you all think.

PS. I also like the tree cat art froM the old covers better than the new animations.

Please chime in y'all. Thanks.


Most of us fans agree with you I think. There have been several threads about this already.

And lol for the mismatched legos. But yeah - that kinda hits the nail on the head.
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Re: Radical shift of ship design
Post by Yow   » Sun May 17, 2015 2:04 pm

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I think we already lost this battle and it doesn't look to good for the war. It's like how the sollies feel about learning of the GA's over whelming tech superiority. Hollywood strikes again. As long as they don't screw away the story maybe, just maybe I can suspend my disbelief and enjoy it. We'll see.

Cthia's father ~ "Son, do not cater to the common belief that a person has to earn respect. That is not true. You should give every person respect right from the start. What a person has to earn is your continued respect!"
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Re: Radical shift of ship design
Post by SWM   » Mon May 18, 2015 7:58 am

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David Weber is satisfied that the producers have good reasons for changing the look of the ships. I accept that the needs of a movie are very different from the needs of a book. Visual appearance is critical in a movie, and the different sides need to be distinctive. I will miss the clean hammerhead shapes of the books, but I am willing to accept the movie conception.
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Re: Radical shift of ship design
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Tue May 19, 2015 2:12 am

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SWM wrote:David Weber is satisfied that the producers have good reasons for changing the look of the ships. I accept that the needs of a movie are very different from the needs of a book. Visual appearance is critical in a movie, and the different sides need to be distinctive. I will miss the clean hammerhead shapes of the books, but I am willing to accept the movie conception.


We all understand that.

But it is possible to achieve a 'distinctiveness' of ship types within a given set of theoretical physical constraints.

Not only possible but also desirable because that - while allowing for distinctive variation - leads to similarities following those physical constraints which the viewer can recognize and which make the tech-side, the space-faring side believable.

I do not of course know how the ships will look in the movie so cannot say anything about that.
But the ships in the game are so totally dissimilar from each other that no common physical constraint is discernible at all. They look like the only thought that went into their design is to make them look as dissimilar as possible with no thought at all to what may make sense from a technical standpoint.

It should be possible to find a compromise. And that could produce huge benefits in the 'coolness-factor' and believability of the ships IMO.
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Re: Radical shift of ship design
Post by SWM   » Tue May 19, 2015 7:33 am

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Bruno Behrends wrote:
SWM wrote:David Weber is satisfied that the producers have good reasons for changing the look of the ships. I accept that the needs of a movie are very different from the needs of a book. Visual appearance is critical in a movie, and the different sides need to be distinctive. I will miss the clean hammerhead shapes of the books, but I am willing to accept the movie conception.


We all understand that.

But it is possible to achieve a 'distinctiveness' of ship types within a given set of theoretical physical constraints.

Not only possible but also desirable because that - while allowing for distinctive variation - leads to similarities following those physical constraints which the viewer can recognize and which make the tech-side, the space-faring side believable.

I do not of course know how the ships will look in the movie so cannot say anything about that.
But the ships in the game are so totally dissimilar from each other that no common physical constraint is discernible at all. They look like the only thought that went into their design is to make them look as dissimilar as possible with no thought at all to what may make sense from a technical standpoint.

It should be possible to find a compromise. And that could produce huge benefits in the 'coolness-factor' and believability of the ships IMO.

I was answering the question the original poster asked, "what do you all think." My answer is that I am willing to accept the movie conception. I said nothing about what anyone else feels or should feel. It was a simple statement of personal opinion, in response to a request for opinions.
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Re: Radical shift of ship design
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Wed May 20, 2015 1:21 am

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SWM wrote:I was answering the question the original poster asked, "what do you all think." My answer is that I am willing to accept the movie conception. I said nothing about what anyone else feels or should feel. It was a simple statement of personal opinion, in response to a request for opinions.


My bad - I misunderstood you.
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Re: Radical shift of ship design
Post by MaxxQ   » Sat May 23, 2015 11:26 pm

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mugger48 wrote:I don't want to be a whiner, but as a fan that has closely followed the technical drawings placed in each book, the apparent radical revisionism of the evergreen ship designs is really bothering me. It is a radical shift from a carefully explained logic that supposedly drove centuries of ship design. Is this only due to artists that want to put their own stamp on the visuals? My own opinion is that the old drawings were better designs, and to the engineering orriented, better looking. The new ship designs look like my nephew went nuts with mismatched Legos.

Anyways, what do you all think.

PS. I also like the tree cat art froM the old covers better than the new animations.

Please chime in y'all. Thanks.


The others who have responded have already said their piece, and I also agree with them that while it would be nice to have "book" canon ships, that so-called battle is already lost.

As one who *does* have "book" canon art for ships (see my sig below and follow the links, if you like), I have a bit more than a passing interest in the designs Evergreen are coming up with. However, I also understand the needs of the studio to attract more than just fans - Weber himself said at HonorCon 2013 that if every fan of the Honorverse bought ten ticket to the movie, the studio would still lose money. People expect that enemy ships in science fiction movies will look different from one another, and Evergreen feel they need to cater to that expectation. Right or wrong (in our eyes), it's their money on the line, and have the right to decide how things will look in the movie (or TV series... whichever it ends up being).

In some ways, I kind of like the idea of different looks for the ships - movie canon vs. book canon. The purists - most of whom reside here or at Baen's Bar - can point to my work and the work of the other artists and writers of the Companion portion of House of Steel, and the rest of the people can be happy with what's depicted in the film. Possibly some of those movie fans will be interested enough to get the books, and at some point, change over to better appreciate the book canon designs.

<shrug> When I first saw Evergreen's ideas, I was fairly irritated that they weren't even trying to match the descriptions in the books. Now, it really doesn't matter to me much anymore. At least the movie/comic designs have impeller rings now. Some of the earlier designs didn't even have those.
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DeviantArt: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/
Mk28 Condor pinnace: http://youtu.be/fy8e-3lrKGE
HMS Fearless: http://youtu.be/uEiGEeq8SiI
Mk13 load sequence: http://youtu.be/i99Ufp_wAnQ
Mk16 attack sequence: http://youtu.be/byq68MjOlJU
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Re: Radical shift of ship design
Post by Dca   » Thu May 28, 2015 7:29 pm

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Artistic license comes at a cost, and if Evergreen is footing the bill then they get a big say. As an engineer, I'm disappointed by the differences manufactured for visual appeal, and I'm worried about the impact on the storyline when deception becomes important within telescope visual range. But that seems worth sacrificing if the core story gets told properly. There's always room for a remake if it's successful enough. And at least the impeller rings are there.
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Re: Radical shift of ship design
Post by SWM   » Thu May 28, 2015 9:05 pm

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Dca wrote:Artistic license comes at a cost, and if Evergreen is footing the bill then they get a big say. As an engineer, I'm disappointed by the differences manufactured for visual appeal, and I'm worried about the impact on the storyline when deception becomes important within telescope visual range. But that seems worth sacrificing if the core story gets told properly. There's always room for a remake if it's successful enough. And at least the impeller rings are there.

Deception at telescope range? As far as I know, that has never happened in the text. In fact, generally the text has said that if they manage to get a clear view of the ship, the deception is over. Deception has only worked if the enemy does not have a clear view of the ship.
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