Nutty Nancy

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Favorite quote:

Hitler and Stalin thus shared a certain politics of tyranny: they brought about catastrophes, blamed the enemy of their choice, and then used the death of millions to make the case that their policies were necessary or desirable. Each of them had a transformative Utopia, a group to be blamed when its realisation proved impossible, and then a policy of mass murder that could be proclaimed as a kind of ersatz victory



Two types of socialism at their best.

How warped a view you have of reality. The above have very little to do with socialism, it's all about demagogues shifting the blame to justify their actions.

You'll find if you examine history that it's a re-occurring phenomena regardless what political system they profess to. It's the result of the "strong man"-leader that promises change, but changing a society on that scale quickly tend to leave a lot of victims in it's wake, especially the "undesirables".

Every time you have a leader that starts blaming some random group of people for all the problems, you can count on that country going downhill unless checked.

Joat42 wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Favorite quote:

Hitler and Stalin thus shared a certain politics of tyranny: they brought about catastrophes, blamed the enemy of their choice, and then used the death of millions to make the case that their policies were necessary or desirable. Each of them had a transformative Utopia, a group to be blamed when its realisation proved impossible, and then a policy of mass murder that could be proclaimed as a kind of ersatz victory



Two types of socialism at their best.

How warped a view you have of reality. The above have very little to do with socialism, it's all about demagogues shifting the blame to justify their actions.

You'll find if you examine history that it's a re-occurring phenomena regardless what political system they profess to. It's the result of the "strong man"-leader that promises change, but changing a society on that scale quickly tend to leave a lot of victims in it's wake, especially the "undesirables".

Every time you have a leader that starts blaming some random group of people for all the problems, you can count on that country going downhill unless checked.

That word socialism gets pretty greasy. Both Stalin and Hitler regarded themselves socialists of a sort although they hated democratic forms of socialism almost as much as they hated each other. Now any time the government gets involved in any kind of problem solving, that gets the label "socialist." We really need a better definition, although that is wishful thinking on my part. The meaning of words is ultimately decided by usage.

Don

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Joat42 wrote:Every time you have a leader that starts blaming some random group of people for all the problems, you can count on that country going downhill unless checked.

Like those that blame all their problems on ‘conservatives’, ‘racists’, ‘gun owners’, ‘capitalists’, ‘the rich’, or ‘straight white men’? And then hand out the torches and pitchforks? Especially when the problems result from their own policies and actions.

I’m surprised we didn’t see a Reichstag Fire in Richmond — leftists committing an atrocity and then loudly blaming it on their enemies.

n7axw wrote:We really need a better definition, although that is wishful thinking on my part. The meaning of words is ultimately decided by usage.

There is already a definition: government control of the means of production.

I would add transportation and communication. Government control over any of those essential elements is socialism.

Intrusive government control over people's lives and their private choices is fascism. Dictating to people what they may buy, where they may live, what they may say or write, who they may do business with.
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You can't have the government take away the freedom of only the people you hate.

Imaginos1892 wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Every time you have a leader that starts blaming some random group of people for all the problems, you can count on that country going downhill unless checked.

Like those that blame all their problems on ‘conservatives’, ‘racists’, ‘gun owners’, ‘capitalists’, ‘the rich’, or ‘straight white men’? And then hand out the torches and pitchforks? Especially when the problems result from their own policies and actions.

I thought your leader leaned the other way and blamed everyone else except those, but I thank you for correcting me

Imaginos1892 wrote:I’m surprised we didn’t see a Reichstag Fire in Richmond — leftists committing an atrocity and then loudly blaming it on their enemies.

I didn't know there was a Reichstag in Richmond, did you think the Nazi's where going to take over Richmond? Did they gather there or what?

n7axw wrote:We really need a better definition, although that is wishful thinking on my part. The meaning of words is ultimately decided by usage.

Imaginos1892 wrote:There is already a definition: government control of the means of production.

I would add transportation and communication. Government control over any of those essential elements is socialism.

Intrusive government control over people's lives and their private choices is fascism. Dictating to people what they may buy, where they may live, what they may say or write, who they may do business with.

So, socialism is fascism.. Got it..

In my fascist country I have healthcare and dentalcare that cost almost nothing, free higher education and a guaranteed pension when I retire. I'm free to do almost what I want, I own my own condo, drive a BMW, money in the bank and a really good retirement plan.

You take the word socialism and attach all the bad things to it, so I have to ask you: How does it feel to live in a country where you can't get affordable medical care if you don't have health-insurance without ending up with a crushing debt? How does it feel to live in a country where the tuition-cost of higher education increased 500% and educational books 800% over 25 years? How does it feel to live in a country where the infrastructure is crumbling around you? How does it feel to live in a country where a persons worth is measured in dollars?

You can't see it, but your country is run by corporations squeezing every dollar they can out of the citizenry at every turn. They buy your politicians to do their bidding and they bamboozle you into believing a narrative which in the end gives you less freedom than what I have. You live in an economic fascist state, or as some call it - a corporatist state, which is incompatible with the liberal ideals which the USA was founded on.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:
recently re-read Timothy Snyder's book 'Blood Lands' about this very area. Both compelling and scholarly and utterly grim.

Favorite quote:

Hitler and Stalin thus shared a certain politics of tyranny: they brought about catastrophes, blamed the enemy of their choice, and then used the death of millions to make the case that their policies were necessary or desirable. Each of them had a transformative Utopia, a group to be blamed when its realisation proved impossible, and then a policy of mass murder that could be proclaimed as a kind of ersatz victory



Two types of socialism at their best.

The Nazis were socialists in the same way that the DPRK is democratic.

Above it was said that socialism is government control of the means of production. That is what I meant about the definition of the words shifting. The classical definition of socialism is public ownership of the means of production... Whichever definition you want to use, it would seem to me that the shift in definition is pretty significant.

Don

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So because I own shares in Coca-Cola Amatil, and others, I'm a socialist?

Yes, actually.

Whereas American capitalism is heading away from that. I own far more "superanuation" type shares, things which have no actual ownership attached. Things that are just an investment of some kind.

Most companies are now majority owned by other companies, investment companies, and eventually maybe a couple hundred people.

Annachie wrote:So because I own shares in Coca-Cola Amatil, and others, I'm a socialist?

Yes, actually.

Whereas American capitalism is heading away from that. I own far more "superanuation" type shares, things which have no actual ownership attached. Things that are just an investment of some kind.

Most companies are now majority owned by other companies, investment companies, and eventually maybe a couple hundred people.

What definition are you using?

Don

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Joat42 wrote:I didn't know there was a Reichstag in Richmond, did you think the Nazi's where going to take over Richmond? Did they gather there or what?

On the night of February 27, 1933 a group of Nazis set fire to the German Parliament building, the Reichstag. Hitler, Goebbels and Goring blamed the fire on communists, and the next day got President Hindenberg to sign the Reichstag Fire Decree ‘temporarily’ suspending most civil rights. Anti-communist propaganda got them enough votes to pass an Enabling Act on March 27, granting the German Chancellor the power to enact laws by decree — effectively making Hitler dictator of Germany.

In the decades since World War 2, there have been other occasions when some group had its thugs commit some blatant crime, and then loudly blamed it on their enemies. As a result, the term ‘Reichstag Fire’ has entered the common vernacular, since referring to that particularly infamous example of such behavior is a convenient way to convey a great deal of meaning in only two words. Of course, it does require a certain degree of awareness in the reader; more, it would seem, than some readers can provide.

Joat42 wrote:So, socialism is fascism.. Got it..

I know, I know, you’re still struggling desperately to make up some definition of socialism which does not include that embarrassing National Socialist Workers Party from Germany — and still failing. Because, Socialism Good, Racism Bad, the Nazis were genocidal racists, therefore they couldn’t possibly be leftists or socialists. The fact that they were all three just bounces right off that perceptual filter.

It’s not like leftists have ever committed mass murder, right?
(Uh, that was sarcasm, by the way.)
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My grandpa voted Republican until the day he died, but he’s been voting Democrat ever since.

You're so close to being correct.

The National Socialist Workers Party did indeed start as a socialist workers party.
Then Hitler joined and took over and, whilst he kept a couple of socialist principles, rapidly took the party to the far right.
Indeed, some of the earliest people thrown into jail after the fire were the socialists.

But then right wing fascists are still struggling to come up with some interpretation of history that makes the Nazi's not be the right wing fascists that they are, and conning more moderate conservatives in the process.