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Truth is subjective!

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Re: Truth is subjective!
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:02 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:
Daryl wrote:Right? So they did it first, still very strange to me.
What school would send their teenaged male students out to protest in public, over an issue that only should involve adult women, and is nothing to do with them?
As I said a different universe.


That would be because you've bought into the idea that free speech can somehow be restricted by gender. Going along the slippery slope, we get free speech being restricted by an upper age limit, a lower age limit, education ... colour.

I'm not a Roman Catholic, but I do know why they think the way they do on abortion. Essentially, it's based on the idea that life begins with the zygote.


That would be an objectively false belief. Life began once over 3 billion years ago (on Earth at least). Since then it has just kept going.

(Also, arguing that any point is where "life began" as the foundation for arguing the rights of a person should be conferred is purely stupid. My lawn has life, I don't face assault charges for mowing it because "life" is not what confers the rights in question.)

A zygote doesn't have the same genetics as its mother, so those different genetics make it a separate being and so it should have legal protection as a separate being.


Cancer cells have different genetics that the body of the person they are inhabiting too, we don't call them people with rights because of it.
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Re: Truth is subjective!
Post by Imaginos1892   » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:13 pm

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The E wrote:Because morality ultimately comes down to how you're feeling about a given situation. It's informed by culture, upbringing, personal history and a bunch of other factors that make it an ultimately subjective issue; While that can certainly be quantified and interrogated using science, it cannot be settled through it. There is no objectively correct answer to this that can be found using the tools and mechanisms of scientific inquiry.

Morality is a subset of philosophy, and philosophy is all about logic and reason. The scientific method itself was developed from the principles of philosophy. So don’t try to tell me that morality is somehow above everything, absolute and unquestionable.

Individual rights are a philosophical concept, and morality is only relevant in terms of those rights, and the collective rights of all the individuals in a society. Morality is a guide for determining what to do when the rights of one individual, or group, conflict with the rights of others. That guide must be logical and rational, if we are to live in a fair and reasonable society.

Morality means nothing until we take some action, and find it to be either moral or immoral. Actions are definitely subject to analysis, as are their consequences. The action that is best, that results in ‘the greatest good for the greatest number’ must be the moral choice, and that result can only be determined by logical, rational analysis of the situation and the outcome.

Imposing arbitrary, unquestioned moral rules that are not subject to analysis and correction is a fast track to injustice and oppression.
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Re: Truth is subjective!
Post by The E   » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:39 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:Morality is a subset of philosophy, and philosophy is all about logic and reason. The scientific method itself was developed from the principles of philosophy. So don’t try to tell me that morality is somehow above everything, absolute and unquestionable.


What, then, is good? What is evil?

I get what you're saying, but you are positing that there is an end state to philosophy, that there's an unarguable definition of what is right and wrong that is universally applicable that our philosophizing is inevitably converging on. What's your proof of this assertion?

In the physical sciences, we can imagine a point where we can describe everything that has happened or will happen in terms of some atomic (meaning: indivisible) operation, be it ever so small and infinitesimal.
But for morality, for the basic question of what is good and what is evil, what is civil and what is not, o such endstate is visible. Hell, just look at something simple like what is considered acceptable behaviour in the workplace over the past few decades, or how many differing opinions there are today on that subject. Does that suggest to you that there is an objectively correct answer somewhere?

Individual rights are a philosophical concept, and morality is only relevant in terms of those rights, and the collective rights of all the individuals in a society. Morality is a guide for determining what to do when the rights of one individual, or group, conflict with the rights of others. That guide must be logical and rational, if we are to live in a fair and reasonable society.


Here's a challenge. Give us a few logical and reasonable rules, and I'll find a situation where they are the completely and objectively wrong thing to do.

Morality means nothing until we take some action, and find it to be either moral or immoral. Actions are definitely subject to analysis, as are their consequences. The action that is best, that results in ‘the greatest good for the greatest number’ must be the moral choice, and that result can only be determined by logical, rational analysis of the situation and the outcome.


I see you've encountered the surface level of the trolley problem.

But what about the other ones?

Imposing arbitrary, unquestioned moral rules that are not subject to analysis and correction is a fast track to injustice and oppression.


All morality is fundamentally arbitrary.
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Re: Truth is subjective!
Post by smr   » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:51 pm

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Gcomeau, please go back to the computer and do some basic research before posting on the forum on this subject. This guy was part of a group of young high schooler's (mixed group) that attended a Pro-Life rally from a Catholic High School. The Catholics do not believe in abortions (the murder of unborn babies in the womb). Daryl, the Pro-Life Rally was scheduled 6 to 8 months in advance and the women's rally was scheduled in September. So that throws out that silly argument.

The situation is truly ironic because many of these people tweeting about kids at a Pro Life have been doxing these kids and are about to sued in court. A famous lawyer as agreed to do Pro Bono work on behalf of kids and their families and sue them in court! They were given 2 days to take down their tweets and posts before they are sued! Second, the State of Kentucky will being going after some these people that have harassing the kids and threatening them online! Ahh got to love that SJW that are so triggered be kids at a Pro-Life Rally and a kid wearing a Maga Hat. Wait did not Melissa Melano say that is the equivalent to the white KKK hood. Give me a break these people are as hysterical as Gcomeau. Kathy Griffin posted a picture of some of these students displaying a 3 point sign at a basketball game and says that they are displaying white power signs. ROFL! Kathy I hope you don't take down your tweets so they can sue you ass of negligence.
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Re: Truth is subjective!
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:43 pm

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smr wrote:Gcomeau, please go back to the computer and do some basic research before posting on the forum on this subject. This guy was part of a group of young high schooler's (mixed group) that attended a Pro-Life rally from a Catholic High School.


I'm aware.

I'm also aware that they were acting like bigoted little shits.

What was your point in pointing out they were from a Catholic school exactly?
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Re: Truth is subjective!
Post by Imaginos1892   » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:11 pm

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The E wrote:In the physical sciences, we can imagine a point where we can describe everything that has happened or will happen in terms of some atomic (meaning: indivisible) operation, be it ever so small and infinitesimal.

That assumes strict determinism, which would preclude free will and render morality a null concept. BUT — strict determinism was invalidated by quantum theory more than a hundred years ago. It is not possible to predict the end state of any specific quantum event that has more than one possible end state.

The E wrote:Here's a challenge. Give us a few logical and reasonable rules, and I'll find a situation where they are the completely and objectively wrong thing to do.

What’s this? Are you arguing by agreeing with me? Arbitrary absolute moral rules can not be applied fairly and consistently. Trying to do so always produces injustices.

I will give you one moral principle that you can’t refute:

LIFE HAS VALUE

That is the basis of a rational, logical morality which assigns to any action a positive or negative value, suitably modified by situation and circumstances. Wanton murder would have…a very large negative value, probably larger than the value of the murderer’s own life.
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Re: Truth is subjective!
Post by Michael Everett   » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:24 pm

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Imaginos, principles and rules are not the same.
Try again.

Also, judging from some of the tweets posted, there are people who believe that wearing a MAGA hat renders the intrinsic value of the wearer valueless.
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Re: Truth is subjective!
Post by Imaginos1892   » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:53 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:Imaginos, principles and rules are not the same.

I never said they were.

But rules must be based on principles. That one is mine.

If you never clearly state your principles, you can't make rules that make sense.

And whatever your principles, you find that absolute, rigid rules can not be made to fit the endless complexity of human interactions. You'd have to make up a separate rule for each situation, and every variation. It would be impossible to keep track of them all.

Michael Everett wrote:Also, judging from some of the tweets posted, there are people who believe that wearing a MAGA hat renders the intrinsic value of the wearer valueless.

And they pretend that THEY are oh, so tolerant, while the hat-wearer is the intolerant one. They don't even bother to find out what message wearing the hat is supposed to convey, just proceed with the lynching.

It's Hat Hate!
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Re: Truth is subjective!
Post by Daryl   » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:08 am

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John Cleese said it best -

My American friends are asking me about President Trumps’s observation that the British ‘like him.’

I regret this is quite unfounded.

The explanation for this canard is that Trump is pronoid.

Pronoid is the opposite of paranoid. A paranoid person thinks, without any basis in reality, that everybody is out to get them. A pronoid person is someone who thinks, without any basis in reality, that everybody likes them.

The fact is that the British loathe Donald Trump.
This is because he is the polar opposite of a ‘Gentleman’, who has qualities the British admire. A fine example is Gareth Southgate.

To the British, a ‘Gentleman’ is a man who is modest, well-mannered, self deprecating, quietly intelligent, considerate of other people’s feeling, and well-informed.

He is not vulgar, inflated, vain, boastful, noisily ignorant, sleazy and common as muck.

I hope this clears up any confusion.”


I may be a snob, but a bully and buffoon, who is so thick he doesn't even realise he is thick is not someone I can respect.
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Re: Truth is subjective!
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:41 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:I will give you one moral principle that you can’t refute:

LIFE HAS VALUE


You then go on to refute it yourself one post later, saving The E the trouble...regarding the above supposedly irrefutable principle you state (emphasis mine):

But rules must be based on principles. That one is mine.


Even you recognize that that principle is dependent on your personal opinion. It is YOUR principle because YOU value life.

It is not everyone's principle, because not everyone does.
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